Formula 1 Talk 2007 Season - Page 5

iadom · 13-09-2007, 19:14

I dare say that Mansour Ojjeh will consider that fine small change.

gazzae · 13-09-2007, 19:55

Don't DaimlerChrysler own a large part of McLaren? I wouldn't think the fine would hurt them that much.

Woolly One · 13-09-2007, 20:04

I can't wait to hear Mclaren's appeal. From what I heard on the lunchtime news (sorry can't remember if it was BEEB or ITV). they want to drop another team in it, for doing the same thing.

The thought - F1 and Turmoil - springs to mind.

TheDaddy · 13-09-2007, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolly One

I can't wait to hear Mclaren's appeal. From what I heard on the lunchtime news (sorry can't remember if it was BEEB or ITV). they want to drop another team in it, for doing the same thing.

The thought - F1 and Turmoil - springs to mind.

I would have thought every team does it, unless you hire people with no expertise or experience, seems like one extreme to another to me, no punishment to punitive

Hom3r · 13-09-2007, 20:12

Agian Ferrari get away scot free,

how can one of the ferrai team apparently give info to Mclaren and NOT get any punishment,

Well cancel F1 (thats F for Ferrari) next year and gve them the trophy now.

I won't be watching it next season, regarless of how Lewis does.

what the the 10th rate coverage on ITV.

BYE BYE F1

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

For all of you that have lost their faith in F1. the A1GP season start on the 30th September

http://www.a1gp.com/default.aspx?Asp...ookieSupport=1

HELLO A1GP

TheDaddy · 13-09-2007, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hom3r

Agian Ferrari get away scot free,

how can one of the ferrai team apparently give info to Mclaren and NOT get any punishment,

Wasn't he an ex employee though, how could they legislate for that?

Hom3r · 13-09-2007, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Wasn't he an ex employee though, how could they legislate for that?

He still was an employee at the time wasn't he, then fired, usless I read wrong.

If Mclaren did steal secrets for them why are Ferari still carp this year.

TheDaddy · 13-09-2007, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hom3r

He still was an employee at the time wasn't he, then fired, usless I read wrong.

If Mclaren did steal secrets for them why are Ferari still carp this year.

I don't to much about F1 or this story but if you are right and he was selling secrets whilst still an employee, then it's much more serious than I thought, akin to industrial espionage, if your right then imo they got what they deserved and the employee should never work in the industry again at any level

As I said don't know to much about the sport but as all cars seem to be different, is stands to reason that various bit of different teams cars are better than their rivals, the more better bits you have the better the car, even relatively minor seeming things could make all the difference

13-09-2007, 21:20

The decision by the investigating body to punish Mclaren as a team, for an individual employees possession of Ferrari documents does not make sense without implying there is 'more than meets the eye'.

On face value, my opinion is that 'if' a Ferrari employee was responsible for the consignment of those documents, that they, as a team, should be punished equally as harshly as the recipient

One very good point I saw raised was 'who' does the $100M fine actually go to, considering the FIA don't seem to be short of a few bob, already ???

TheDaddy · 13-09-2007, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by homealone

The decision by the investigating body to punish Mclaren as a team, for an individual employees possession of Ferrari documents does not make sense without implying there is 'more than meets the eye'.

On face value, my opinion is that 'if' a Ferrari employee was responsible for the consignment of those documents, that they, as a team, should be punished equally as harshly as the recipient

Presumably though Ferrari didn't know one of their employee's was passing information on though

13-09-2007, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Presumably though Ferrari didn't know one of their employee's was passing information on though

'presumably' neither did McLaren, as a team, know an employee of theirs was receiving the alleged information ????

- sorry, not disagreeing, just puzzled why only one team was punished?

TheDaddy · 13-09-2007, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by homealone

'presumably' neither did McLaren, as a team, know an employee of theirs was receiving the alleged information ????

- sorry, not disagreeing, just puzzled why only one team was punished?

What could Ferrari be punished for?

If Mclaren didn't knowingly benefit or make any brown envelope payments then why were the punished at all?

Cobbydaler · 14-09-2007, 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

What could Ferrari be punished for?

If Mclaren didn't knowingly benefit or make any brown envelope payments then why were the punished at all?

McLaren were punished because Max decided they should be. There's no logic in the decision; neither the reason behind it nor the scope of the punishment.

As his Dad once said "I am not, and never have been, a man of the right"...

Max is certainly a man of the wrong...

Scarlett · 14-09-2007, 09:11

Still not in any way convinced about the scale of this punishment. It does look like a sop to Ferrari who were outraged when McLaren didn't get punished last time.

There is such a thing as intent, that's the key to all this.

Okay so clearly someone* leaked the secrets to Mr Coughlan of McLaren because the 780 page document was found at his house. However was this under 'team' orders or just a rogue employee? (now lets not forget that the leaking of the document was almost certainly the work of a rogue employee)

At least some of the high up's knew that the the documents existed but its never been made clear if this was before or after Ferrari found out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News

Dennis is confident their findings will reveal the information in Coughlan's possession was not used to develop the McLarens.

However, it emerged during the hearing McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale was aware Coughlan had the documents.

It is unclear, though, whether Neale knew before or after Ferrari started their legal case.

See here

However what seems to be a given is that the only person who acted to get these documents was Mike Coughlan. He's never said that anyone else was involved in the intital contact or that it was under orders form the team. So basically McLaren may have found out that one of their guys had the documents before Ferrari announced that they'd gone missing. It appears from the quote above that Jonathan Neale knew of the documents but that may well have been it. At worst this happened a number of days before Ferrari realised where they were and started making accusations.

Also once this document was in Mike Coughlan's possetion, did he actually pass any of it on directly? Did the rest of team know that he had it? Was it a case of him coming into the office and saying “I've had an idea lads, why don't we set this componant up this poisition instead.” or was it “Well Ferrari have worked out that this componant on their car works best in this position, let's test it for ours” From the comments in the article, it appears it was certainly not the second scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News

The entire engineering team in excess of 140 people provided statements to the FIA affirming they had never received or used the Ferrari information.

See here

So at worst this was the first scenario but then it's a very heavy punishment for the team if they didn't know the knowledge was being used. Only if Jonathan Neale knew well in advance and just kept quiet and left Mike Coughlan to continue tweaking the car** would a punishement such as this seem fair. If this were the case, I'd expect this to have been all over the news but it not. Not even an accusation of this so I suspect it can be fairly dismissed.

Realistically this was down to the FIA stating at the end of the last court hearing that;

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News

If it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite McLaren back in front of the world council where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship

See here

So they had no choice but to be excessively (and going on the evidence in the public domain to date, I do believe this is excessive) harsh. However I still haven't seen any proof that the information was used knowingly by McLaren. Certainly not to the "detriment of the championship". If it was then why not also punish the drivers who must have benifitted from the info (if it was used)?*** Hey while were at it, why such a Harsh punishment for a team due to the actions of a single rogue employee? Are the FIA going to say they the top guys knew weeks in advance of the document that they covered it up? I await todays FIA details with interest. As far as I am concerned unless they can prove that Mike Coughlan told the team (or at least the top people) that he had the doc and they did nothing and left him to it for a substantual time then the punishment is just plain excessive and clearly being put in place to placate other teams etc. Maybe even as a deterent to others doing the same **** that's the only crazy context that it makes sense.

My next concern is how the hell are McLaren going to be able to defend next years car? it was stated by the FIA that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News

The team must also prove there is no Ferrari "intellectual property" in their cars next year before racing.

See here

So if, as it appears to date, the rest of McLaren were unaware of the Ferrari doc until the accusation. How are they going to know what is Ferrari IP? They haven't seen the doc (and all swore in court this was the case) and if they are shown the doc then it kind of defeats the object. So they are going to have to hope that Mike Coughlan didn't use it before he was found out to direct their research down certain paths?

I am sure that McLaren will miss at least one or two races next year as Ferrari claim various enhancements are their's even if McLaren can prove the steps they took to reach that point.*****

Like I said before, I'm interesting awaiting the FIA statement later.

Scarlett.

*I say someone because Mr Stepney has only been accused and convicted yet.

** The 2007 car would already have been designed well before this dossier got to McLaren so it wont have affected this years car massivly.

*** I believe the expression used by the BBC reporter was "So they don't shoot the Golden goose." Hamilton has done more for F1 this year than Max and Bernie for the last 5.

**** Yea, Leak secrets and we'll get you, your family, the family dog, the neighbours, Bob the milkman and old Granny Welling who you occasionally collect a paper for.

***** There are basically only so many ways to solve a given problem so it's quite likely that at least some of these will have been solved in the same way by Ferrari and McLaren.

Saaf_laandon_mo · 14-09-2007, 09:35

CAn someone clarify one think for me please. How is it that the constructers lose points for using illegally obtained information (which alledgedly have given them an advantage gained in dubious manners) but the drivers still keep the points. Aren't they racing in the same cars and got those points which Maclaren can no longer use? Im a bit confused.