NAT's

Dexstroyer · 11-05-2010, 23:40

Hi all,

Not sure on whether this should be here or console gaming but here goes,

We have 2 xbox 360 consoles and have recently discovered that in order to play online without problems requires you to have an open NAT on both,

I have partly managed to achieve this by giving one console a static IP and using the port forward feature in my router to open ports
53, 80, 88 & 3074

This allows one console to permenantly have an open NAT, but not the other,
as you can only open the ports for one IP address

The router I use is a TP Link WR1043N

One suggestion was to get more than one IP address from Virgin, is this possible, I am on the 50MB service,

My Son & I would really appreciate any help and advice anyone can give,

Thanks

Horace · 12-05-2010, 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dexstroyer

Not sure on whether this should be here or console gaming but here goes,

More likely the Networking sub-forum.

You need to use triggered port forwarding (page 55 of your manual if it's the same as the one online). Remove DMZ and any port forwarding you have going on regarding the ports below.

http://imgur.com/cHoaa.png

[mod: oversized pic changed to link]

Dexstroyer · 12-05-2010, 07:15

Nice thank you I'll have a look when I get home
I tried a variation of this where by I entered a range of 52 - 54 to trigger 53 and so on but that did not work
what about another idea I have read which says above as you have but also using a static IP on both and then
Using the address reservation with MAC address in the DHCP section?

---------- Post added at 07:15 ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 ----------

Just had a quick check whilst at work and found the following statement on page 57 of the manual,

Each rule is allowed to be used only by one host on LAN synchronously the trigger connection of other hosts on LAN will be refused,

So does this mean it'll only work for ONE Xbox?

Horace · 12-05-2010, 07:22

No it's not restricted to a single host, if it worked in the same way as port forwarding there would be no point to its existence. It's primary use (I believe) is to allow non-static ip hosts behind the router to have ports forwarded to them but it works just as well for multiple hosts using the same ports since the address to be forwarded isn't static but based on which made the connection.

Dexstroyer · 12-05-2010, 07:34

I did wonder what the point of port forwarding and port triggering would be if they were the same,

Should I give the devices static IP addresses first? Also what do you think to the idea of the address reservation in the DHCP as it would appear this is what some of the open WRT software seems to do,

This was my next topic to read up on if this doesnt work!

http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index

Horace · 12-05-2010, 08:10

I've just realised there's a flaw in this for use in gaming in general if only one port was available however since multiple ports are utilised on XBLive and I've seen this working in practice, obviously because of the multiple port use then it shouldn't be an issue, although I suppose it would depend on how sophisticated the router is. Static IP addresses shouldn't make any difference but I've known routers to be quirky and illogical (or just plain buggy) so if dynamic doesn't work then obviously try static.
Edit : This could all be down to uPNP being enabled, so that's also something to try but I've always tried to avoid using uPNP for security reasons.

mjpartyboy · 12-05-2010, 11:37

My understanding is that port triggering only allows one device at a time to use the triggered port, so if 360 1 triggers port 53 first, then 360 2 cannot use it until it's free again, etc.

Have you tried setting up one 360 with port forwarding and putting the other one in the DMZ?

Kymmy · 12-05-2010, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dexstroyer

One suggestion was to get more than one IP address from Virgin, is this possible, I am on the 50MB service,

Nope, VM business do a multi-IP service on either a 4Mb or 10Mb (Both Ex-NTL only) but there's nothing on residential..

Dexstroyer · 12-05-2010, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Nope, VM business do a multi-IP service on either a 4Mb or 10Mb (Both Ex-NTL only) but there's nothing on residential..

Ok thank you,

I remember the days of the 600DL

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjpartyboy

My understanding is that port triggering only allows one device at a time to use the triggered port, so if 360 1 triggers port 53 first, then 360 2 cannot use it until it's free again, etc.

Have you tried setting up one 360 with port forwarding and putting the other one in the DMZ?

No,

didnt try this

This would mean....

both having static IP's i imagine then opening ports for xbox 1 and putting xbox 2 in DMZ..

maybe I'll try this too

Kymmy · 12-05-2010, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjpartyboy

Have you tried setting up one 360 with port forwarding and putting the other one in the DMZ?

Only one device can ever use a single port at any one time on the same address, so unless the xbox live service (or game servers) have alternate ports then you're never gonna be able to use the port forwarding and DMZ together as it'll still be trying to use the same external port..

Surely microsoft offer alternate ports??? If not then they're truely limiting their market

Dexstroyer · 12-05-2010, 12:34

If I disable th Upnp on my router will my xbox's and PS3 still see my NAS?

Im overwhelmed now as to which process to try first,

I think just to make things easier I will give both a static IP just so I can keep an eye on which is which in the router statistics,

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Only one device can ever use a single port at any one time on the same address, so unless the xbox live service (or game servers) have alternate ports then you're never gonna be able to use the port forwarding and DMZ together as it'll still be trying to use the same external port..

Surely microsoft offer alternate ports??? If not then they're truely limiting their market

This is the circles I have been going round and round in....

Just discovered something called DD-WRT firmware but Im not sure it would give me any more options than I already have based on what you say above about ports.

Will have alook around and see if there are alternative ports

mjpartyboy · 12-05-2010, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Only one device can ever use a single port at any one time on the same address, so unless the xbox live service (or game servers) have alternate ports then you're never gonna be able to use the port forwarding and DMZ together as it'll still be trying to use the same external port.

I thought it was worth a go since it fixed a work colleague's same problem with two PS3s connected to one router. Anything is worth trying in these situations.

Dexstroyer · 12-05-2010, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjpartyboy

I thought it was worth a go since it fixed a work colleague's same problem with two PS3s connected to one router. Anything is worth trying in these situations.

Yep anythings worth a try plus Ive learnt along the way,
But I have to reside to the fact that the 2 xbox's are both trying to access the same ports at the same time,

Although..................

My router has the Upnp feature which I have disabled and triggered the ports needed instead, this just helps by which ever xbox turns on first gets the open NAT,

Since this I have found a site that does actually list Microsoft certified routers that will allow multiple xbox's with an open NAT online at once!
Only difference is that you have to have the official certified firmware to go with them,

Should you need the information you can find it here, so whilst it is apparently possible I'd be interested as to how it works....

Since my router is a recent purchase with 300Mbps wireless and a Giga LAN Im gonna stick with it a while!

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------

Dont shoot me down just yet, Ive had an idea!

What about connecting 2 routers? If I disable the DHCP on the 2nd router will that allow me to assign the triggered ports again?

Can this work with 2 sets on the network.......

Matth · 12-05-2010, 23:42

2 routers won't help, the ports can only be forwarded once, the answer seems to be to use UPNP, along with static DHCP assignment (IP address reserved to client device hardware mac on router). The static DHCP assignment is needed to prevent the devices swapping addresses, which may cause annoying issues.

NB. If your router does not give open NAT to a single box using UPNP, then it won't be any better trying to do it with two.

Kymmy · 13-05-2010, 08:39

The issue here isn't the need for two routers (remember your residential modem can only give out one external IP) As such you only have a single pipe (that one external IP) feeding your whole internal network.. Even if the router was clever enough to multistream the relevant ports (most residential routers will not, no idea though about tomato (or equiv) and match them to the internal IP's you're still switiching from one internal IP to the other which would in essence slow down both XBOX's probably to a point of extreme lag. This would probably also be the case even if xbox had alternate ports..

The ONLY sure fire way of doing it is to gain another external IP (either an additional link (ADSL or VMB) or to swap your existing 50Mb VM for a VMB (5 IP's on 10Mb but only for ex-ntl) or go straight to an adsl supplier that will do you a block of 8 (5 usable) IPs

Also please do not start up any more threads on the same problem