Coronavirus

Originally Posted by nffc

Wonder how all the people trying to coerce others into vaccines are feeling now.

Exactly the same as before I would think.

Every drug/medicine/vaccine etc has potential side effects, sometimes serious, generally not - even paracetamol can have rare but serious side effects.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by Paul

Exactly the same as before I would think.

Every drug/medicine/vaccine etc has potential side effects, sometimes serious, generally not - even paracetamol can have rare but serious side effects.

They do but the point that the covid vaccines were new (how couldn't they be, when a year before the virus didn't really exist or was stuck in a lab or a pangolin or whatever one believes) and based on new/not particularly largely used technology (the viral vector ones ironically being the more conventional) especially with mRNA vaccines, nothing had been mass vaccinated like this before, the mass delivered vaccination programmes tend to be something which is given to something like kids at a certain age or like flu vaccines to people in a certain risk profile and it's not particularly the case that the general population is immunised with something new and all largely at the same time (I think we'd basically gone from the point at the start of Jan 2021 where no-one had been vaccinated at all to the summer where pretty much all adults had been given at least one dose).



Don't get me wrong, it had to be that way and it had to be the case that everyone who wanted a vaccine could get one. And the vaccines presumably had to pass the various stages to be certified, though there's no doubt these were sped up but without cutting corners for regulation. But it does mean that whilst side effects may have been noted in the sample groups, it would not have been clear how this translated into the general population, and in what frequency, as well as if there were any longer term effects of using the vaccines 1, 3, 5, 10 etc years later - indeed some of this isn't known yet. But with something like paracetamol it's known which side effects are rare, which are common, which happen years later if it's used extensively, etc etc, because it's a commonly used drug and it's been used for decades.



What I'm mainly on about is the people who were saying that the unvaccinated people would not be permitted from doing certain things, those advocating vaccine passports, etc, all because in some cases they would want to be careful about what they're taking, as opposed to being crackpots opposed to the vaccine (mainly looking at people like Novak here). If people didn't want to be vaccinated, weren't at massive risk from not doing so, nor was this a risk to others (e.g. if they weren't in contact with known risk people) but only did so because they wanted to be allowed to go to the shops or the football or a concert or something, this seems a bit wrong, and especially if the vaccine then caused them adverse effects. (But then covid can do this too).


Chris made the point about herd immunity too but you can achieve that with a certain percentage where the virus doesn't transmit anyway without sufficient vulnerable hosts to move around, and also, this immunity can (albeit not without risk) be attained by infection as well as vaccination. As another slightly related point on this, the increased herd immunity can sometimes also lead to the virus wanting to gain more of a competitive edge which results in variants with more vaccine escape becoming more prominent, which is what happened (although I don't think the actual evolution of omicron was a lot to do with vaccination).

[Dude111]

Originally Posted by Paul

Exactly the same as before I would think.

My best friends who turned n me still havent come back,even though I know they can now see I was right what I told them about this!!

The mother accused me of spreading "vaccine lies"

The father who I think is very sick now said to me "Take your head out of your ass and do your research about this shot" in 2020 (I told him I did thats why I didnt want it (HE DIDNT DO ANY RESEARCH THATS APPARENT!!!))

Now they know I didnt lie but still they wont stop this..... They have been horribly cruel to me about this..... Tried to force me to get it,etc.......

[Stephen]

There was nothing wrong with the vaccines though. Also there was no vaccine in 2020.

[Dude111]

Well when they first came out........

Originally Posted by Dude111

Well when they first came out........

You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

We have 4 years of data from population scale use of covid vaccines in countries all over the world. They were safe, they are safe. Even the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine is safe by any ordinary use of the word. The number of cases of blood clots associated with it is a minuscule fraction of the doses given. Ox/AZ is being withdrawn now because its underlying technology makes it more cumbersome to update for new variants of covid than the newer mRNA vaccine classes produced by Moderna and others. It’s a commercial decision.

We had the opportunity to stop a pandemic in its tracks in 2020 and 2021 by vaccinating everyone, regardless of their personal risk of serious symptoms, thereby giving the virus nowhere to go. Most people understood this and were happy to participate because they understood they were caught up in something bigger than themselves, in which they owed it to their neighbours to play their part. Sadly some people did not. You, apparently, were one of the ones who mulishly insisted on your personal freedoms whilst cheerfully ignoring the wider society within which your personal freedom is expressed. A pity.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Chris

You, apparently, were one of the ones who mulishly insisted on your personal freedoms whilst cheerfully ignoring the wider society.

It transpired that it was all about personal choice and personal safety.

Not everyone needed the vaccine, if you were fit and healthy and under 50-60 years of age you most likely didn't need it and you had to weigh up the risks of, what was then, an under tested vaccine v's the risks of fighting it off yourself.

I took the vaccine, not for wider society, but because I wanted to travel abroad to play golf. I was also mid-fifties, not unfit but could be fitter etc.

There was no way I was going have my kids vaccinated, as they didn't need it.

As it turned out the vaccines didn't stop you from getting COVID, didn't stop you from spreading COVID and future strains were milder so you probably didn't need it for them.

There was a claim that the vaccines made you "less ill" but there was no way to verify that, as I say, future strains were milder.

So to chastise someone for not getting the vaccine, comes across as a bit churlish.

If you got vaccinated good for you but no one else owes you that they should do it.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It transpired that it was all about personal choice and personal safety.

Not everyone needed the vaccine, if you were fit and healthy and under 50-60 years of age you most likely didn't need it and you had to weigh up the risks of, what was then, an under tested vaccine v's the risks of fighting it off yourself.

I took the vaccine, not for wider society, but because I wanted to travel abroad to play golf. I was also mid-fifties, not unfit but could be fitter etc.

There was no way I was going have my kids vaccinated, as they didn't need it.

As it turned out the vaccines didn't stop you from getting COVID, didn't stop you from spreading COVID and future strains were milder so you probably didn't need it for them.

There was a claim that the vaccines made you "less ill" but there was no way to verify that, as I say, future strains were milder.

So to chastise someone for not getting the vaccine, comes across as a bit churlish.

If you got vaccinated good for you but no one else owes you that they should do it.

That right there is the problem. People not understanding how all vaccines work. They are not cures, they don't stop you from ever getting the virus, whether its covid Polio, Hep B, Flu etc.

They provide your body with the tools to create antibodies. This then allows your body to fight off whatever it is. Either with zero symptoms or very minimal symptoms. It also great reduces your chances of passing said virus to others.

A normal healthy immune system in many cases will fight off common viruses and you never notice. For example with my being a transplant recipient I have a weakened immune system. There is a virus called CMV that most of the world's population have and its relatively simple and our bodies fight it off without a sweat. However I got it in October last year and was in hospital 4 days because my immune system struggled to cope.

Had it been a much more infectious and worse illness it could have been much worse. That's why there are vaccines for certain viruses as it gives our bodies the extra help it needs to protect itself.

[Taf]

Shoppers were being asked to volunteer for a COVID LFT a couple of days ago. Most asked seemed happy to have one done. The results were given in a sealed envelope that matched a random number they were issued at the time of testing. All they needed was a rough idea of your age, and you didn't have to collect the results.

The missus had had the sniffles for a few days, and tested positive. I wasn't offered a test as their quota for my age group was complete. Our daughter developed a snotty nose yesterday, and I was bunged-up this morning. Neither of us have any other symptoms.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Stephen

That right there is the problem. People not understanding how all vaccines work.

I understand how vaccines work.

They are not cures, they don't stop you from ever getting the virus, whether its covid Polio, Hep B, Flu etc.

The Polio vaccine has an efficacy of 99%, Smallpox was 95%, Hep B 98% and they stop you from getting ill. They bolster your immune system to fight the infection.

I had the vaccine and got COVID, and practically everyone I know that had the vaccine also got it and were quite ill with it.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I understand how vaccines work.



The Polio vaccine has an efficacy of 99%, Smallpox was 95%, Hep B 98% and they stop you from getting ill. They bolster your immune system to fight the infection.

I had the vaccine and got COVID, and practically everyone I know that had the vaccine also got it and were quite ill with it.

"quite ill" is a bit vague though and could mean a variety of things. For some it could be that they were lying in bed for a few days but I think clinically they define mild as something which doesn't require ventilation in hospital. There's a massive difference.



Plus it also depends on what vaccine you have and when you had it.


I think the "strains are milder now so it doesn't matter as much" argument may be coincidental too - so in general since omicron it is true that the hospital admissions and deaths from people getting covid has gone down and also that quite a few people have other symptoms like that of a cold and actually have covid. But we are dealing with a group now who have largely speaking some immunity whether that's from having a vaccine (or several) or having one or more covid infections, or both. This would be sufficient in a lot of people to give an immune recognition even if the next infection was a different strain so that it would help to minimise a more severe infection. So it is potentially the case that omicron is milder anyway but vaccinated people or previously infected people would probably get a milder illness than someone who generally speaking hasn't had it or been vaccinated.


I know that the newer bivalent vaccines are different but these also haven't been offered to the general population. Most people had the initial two shots sometime in early-mid 2021 and most likely either AZ in older groups or Pfizer at the start then later with younger people, then when omicron arrived and they weren't sure how bad it would be everyone was offered a 3rd which was usually either Pfizer or Moderna. All of these were based off the original strain of covid for which they were high-90s effective against any type of infection, and also alpha, but slightly less effective on beta, gamma and delta (of which we really only got delta here). But the virus has changed a lot which makes the original vaccines less effective and this seems to be the case for the newer ones too as they're often a few months behind.


I think if we hadn't vaccinated that there would have been more people even in supposed not at high risk groups who would have been ill with covid for a while, which might have progressed to a more severe illness or post-viral conditions, whatever issues there were the vaccination did limit the damage here...

[jonbxx]

I did a little digging a while back on if the COVID vaccines reduce transmission and they do to some extent. Here is a review of the clinical trials - https://assets.publishing.service.go...pid-review.pdf

It’s quite long and very dull as epidemiology studies tend to be but the key pages are from page 8. The two measures are SAR which is the rate of spreading to others and RR which is risk reduction for spreading to others compared to unvaccinated. The effect is modest but seems real. The study also looks at viral load which is how much virus is present in someone in COVID and the load was always lower in the vaccinated which explains why the chance of transmission is less.


By the way, if paracetamol was launched now, it would NEVER be approved. The dose gap between useful pain killing and toxic effects is way to small for a modern drug.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

By the way, if paracetamol was launched now, it would NEVER be approved. The dose gap between useful pain killing and toxic effects is way to small for a modern drug.

I have to admit i don't take it because it never really does anything for me. Whereas ibuprofen or diclofenac usually does work and paracetamol also has suggested adverse effects with alcohol which might put some people off

[Dude111]

Originally Posted by Pierre

As it turned out the vaccines didn't stop you from getting COVID, didn't stop you from spreading COVID and future strains were milder so you probably didn't need it for them.

Yes and I guess I cant talk about this here...

I dont wanna make anyone mad.. (Thats very important to me)

[Sirius]

My immune system is all over the place due to cancer. I still have the booster vaccines and in fact have just had my booster last week.