Hamas Israel War

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I went to a lot of trouble to describe the regional history

No you didn’t. You started in 1948. Regional history did not begin there.

If you’re genuinely interested in regional history, try again, this time discussing Ottoman land reform, early Zionism and the British Mandate.

Clue: if you don’t go back at least as far as 1858 you’re doing it wrong.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No idea, but if you think Israeli security and IDF strength will be lessened by this incident. I know you’re not that daft.

Whether the risk is high or low is irrelevant if the perceived risk of terror is high. I cant even take a full size toothpaste on a plane because some guy almost blew his shoes up twenty years ago. Would you live there with your wife or daughters?

Every future Israel election will be fought off the back of this for decades.

And round and round we go.

But it does. The amount of money and resources that will be thrown at this. Hamas have guaranteed maximum attention and resources for the IDF and MOSAD for a generation or two.

You are kidding yourself on if you think it's not already so disproportionate as to be irrelevant. What terror groups have to offer is innovative, often suicidal, methods.

All Israelis live there despite knowing that all of their neighbours want them dead. They’re not going to flee. Have you not looked at any of their history? They’ll fight for their state.

This will only harden their resolve.

As will Israel's reprisals on innocent Palestinians to the Palestinian people.

Perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Lebanon or Syria will allow Palestinians to relocate to their countries? Been a bit quiet on that front.

We aren't queuing to take in anyone either.

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Are they committing war crimes? Are you the current sole arbiter at The Hague?

If you are wilfully ignoring what you can clearly see with your own eyes, or worse you think nits a reasonable response, you can't really complain about the next terrorist attack on Israel or the one after that.

We are going round and round a bit so i will bid you good night at this point I'm sure the thread will still run and run.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Whether the risk is high or low is irrelevant if the perceived risk of terror is high. I cant even take a full size toothpaste on a plane because some guy almost blew his shoes up twenty years ago. Would you live there with your wife or daughters?

It’s a good point, only the subjugation of Gaza in the short to medium term would help, and that is probably will happen.

And round and round we go.

indeed, one side has previously offered concessions and a willingness to negotiate, the other hasn’t, only death to Israel, let’s keep spinning.

You are kidding yourself on if you think it's not already so disproportionate as to be irrelevant. What terror groups have to offer is innovative, often suicidal, methods.

major questions will be asked, this will make it more disproportionate. They always break through. The CIA didn’t stop 9/11, MI5 didn’t stop 7/7 or Manchester.

Israel has faced suicide bombers before, many times, this will come as no surprise to them.

As will Israel's reprisals on innocent Palestinians to the Palestinian people.

No doubt.wonderful isn’t it? Imagine if one side would negotiate in good faith how different things might be?

We aren't queuing to take in anyone either.

are we advocating the elimination of the Israeli state? Or are we asking for peace?

If you are wilfully ignoring what you can clearly see with your own eyes, or worse you think its a reasonable response,

I don’t have access to any intelligence, it may be a legitimate target, there may be Hamas sheltering there. I don’t know. Do you have access to those intelligence reports?

you can't really complain about the next terrorist attack on Israel or the one after that.

You seem to have unrivalled access to intelligence for the area. Impressive.

We are going round and round a bit so i will bid you good night at this point I'm sure the thread will still run and run.

Good night. I think people need to reconsider the terms terrorist and terrorism. I’m not sure everyone understands it.

Funny how "whataboutary" is suddenly valid for some forum members when defending Hamas terrorists.
Anyone defending them should be totally ashamed of themselves.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

Funny how "whataboutary" is suddenly valid for some forum members when defending Hamas terrorists.
Anyone defending them should be totally ashamed of themselves.

You won't find a single post where I've defended them.

It's not 'whataboutery' - that relates to completely unlinked events. Politicians telling unrelated lies, different corruption, the Lawrence Fox and Chris Packham discussion the other day.

The actions of Israel and Palestinian terror groups are absolutely intertwined. Always have been and always will be.

For the avoidance of doubt:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...0&postcount=72

I didnt mention any names, but clearly a guilty conscience kicking in.

Still, for the "avoidance of doubt", in which post have you condemed them ?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

I didnt mention any names, but clearly a guilty conscience kicking in.

Still, for the "avoidance of doubt", in which post have you condemed them ?

I've linked above.

It's not a guilty conscience it was an obvious reference to me. Unless I've guessed incorrectly in which case you can correct me. It's worth noting once again nobody will find a single post where I've defended Hamas.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I've linked above.

It's not a guilty conscience it was an obvious reference to me. Unless I've guessed incorrectly in which case you can correct me. It's worth noting once again nobody will find a single post where I've defended Hamas.

My friend John is absolutely right.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

The actions of Israel and Palestinian terror groups are absolutely intertwined. Always have been and always will be.

How can anyone not see this? It is the fuel that drives this whole sorry story. By not condemning both sides, it allows one side to claim the moral high ground.

The people who claim that children killed by Israeli bombs are not victims of terrorism in the same way that the Israeli's killed by the Hamas terrorists are the real problem here.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

How can anyone not see this? It is the fuel that drives this whole sorry story. By not condemning both sides, it allows one side to claim the moral high ground.

The people who claim that children killed by Israeli bombs are not victims of terrorism in the same way that the Israeli's killed by the Hamas terrorists are the real problem here.

While there is truth in Ian’s assertion, this is thwarted by the dark force of Iran which stokes up the hatred of Jews and Israel.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

While there is truth in Ian’s assertion, this is thwarted by the dark force of Iran which stokes up the hatred of Jews and Israel.

If Israel is held to account in the same way that Hamas, Iran, etc. are then this whole narrative would be radically different.

The use of Collective Punishment in Gaza, a war crime in itself, will be allowed by the US and the wider world. They will look on while innocents are killed.

An example:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...-east-67050350

The death toll in Gaza is now above 700 people, the health ministry says.

They said over 100 children and over 100 women were among those killed in Israeli air strikes.

Yesterday saw the biggest number of people killed here in a single day for a long time - about 300. The health ministry this morning said two-thirds were civilians.

One significant strike hit a refugee market - with Israel saying they were targeting a house belonging to Hamas commander.

But when they hit the house, many people in the street and in nearby houses were killed.

[tweetiepooh]

One problem that has been hinted at is the Palestinians are not Semitic so are not Arab. Mostly they are the poor people in the middle between Israel and some Arab nations whose intention is the destruction of the Jewish state and if possible the Jewish people. Palestinians, and especially Christian Palestinians, who seek peace with Israel have been targeted by Arab groups for decades and those who are convinced to fight are targeted by Israel.



And the problem goes back to Genesis 16 when Abram and Sarai tried to solve their infertility problem and bring about God's promise that Abram would be the father of many by (ab)using Hagar leading to Ishmael and thus to the Arab people. And as back then with invading armies from Persian, Syria, Assyria etc Israel is fighting for their very existence. If anyone thinks that the goal is Palestinian freedom and a Palestinian state you are very mistaken.

[ianch99]

Just to be clear on who is doing what now:

Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly."

Just to add, 50% of those in Gaza are children

[peanut]

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

One problem that has been hinted at is the Palestinians are not Semitic so are not Arab. Mostly they are the poor people in the middle between Israel and some Arab nations whose intention is the destruction of the Jewish state and if possible the Jewish people. Palestinians, and especially Christian Palestinians, who seek peace with Israel have been targeted by Arab groups for decades and those who are convinced to fight are targeted by Israel.



And the problem goes back to Genesis 16 when Abram and Sarai tried to solve their infertility problem and bring about God's promise that Abram would be the father of many by (ab)using Hagar leading to Ishmael and thus to the Arab people. And as back then with invading armies from Persian, Syria, Assyria etc Israel is fighting for their very existence. If anyone thinks that the goal is Palestinian freedom and a Palestinian state you are very mistaken.

Yep, religion, The root of all evil.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Just to be clear on who is doing what now:

Just to add, 50% of those in Gaza are children

I wonder how many days it'll take Israel to surpass the civilian death toll of Russia's almost 600 day old special military operation.

I'm sure our armchair generals will be all over analysis comparing the two.