Coronavirus

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

The EU would be the big looser here as the Pfizer vaccine is dependent upon supplies of a critical component from the UK as they've bad-mouthed the AZ one.

No. The production of AZ vaccine in the UK would stop dead as the AZ vaccine uses EU sourced ingredients and the production facilities are working 'hand to mouth' with little or no stock built up. On top of that, no Belgium produced Pfizer vaccines for the UK.

Nobody would gain from arbitrarily export controlling raw materials

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news...zeneca-vaccine

Americans kicking up a fuss (again) about Astrazenica paperwork from the clinical trial, potentially using outdated data that could skew efficacy and urging them to "ensure the most accurate, up-to-date efficacy data be made public as quickly as possible".

Be interesting to see if this holds up FDA approval.

I guess the US can afford to be perfectionist on this as its vaccination programme is going very well. However, surely any trial data has been superseded by the mass vaccination programmes in place across the World using the AstraZeneca vaccine.

[Sephiroth]

I'd like to put something forward that touches both Covid and Brexit.

1/
Covid doesn't care about the EU or the UK. But Covid has laid low both the EU and UK.

2/
Accordingly, Single Market, Free Movement, Customs Union - they have little relevance to the UK in the Covid context (not speaking for other EU countries).

3/
Covid is something where the population are important stakeholders. The EU, as we know, is not a nation state. To act on behalf of all EU nations where there is no particular competence (as with Covid), the agreement of all 27 members is required such that specific powers are conferred on the EC.

4/
What would have been the case if the UK had been an EU member? Is there a clue when, in the transition year, the UK was invited to join the EU vaccine procurement collective? Presuming that the Oxford Vaccine (and AZ) were all lined up from earlier in the year, I don't think the UK government would have wished to support the EU proposition.

5/
But then if May had remained PM, she would almost certainly have locked on to the EU proposition.

6/
Because the need to survive (a pandemic) trumps everything except public order, the UK people expect the government to pay close attention to its own. The EU is proving itself to be an enemy - a real enemy. I think that Boris' current approach, in so far as we can glean, is the right one. Not to threaten, maintain reticence, hold the line and let the EU keep on being the bad boys.

7/
How right we were to leave the EU. Our lives matter more than the Single Market.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Two months plus ago is a long time in Covid vaccination production. My understanding is that Merck is now a parallel supplier to Croda and ramping up production all the time. However, putting this aside, Pfizer is a US company and its EU plant produces vaccine for all countries outside the US. Yes, even Canada has to get its Pfizer vaccines delivered from Belgium! For this reason, I am sure that Pfizer could tap its US supplier to temporarily fill a gap in UK supply. But I am happy to go on record and predict that Pfizer exports to the UK will not be banned.


Hugh cited the journalist Dave Keating's Tweet yesterday reiterating the EU deal was signed a day before the UK one. We all agree that the UK deal was more tightly worded meaning that no Covid 19 vaccines have been exported from the UK whilst needed in this country. By contrast, the EU has exported some 41 million vaccine doses with a quarter of these going to the UK.

Err no, that’s not *quite* what Keating said. The crucial tweet is this one:

AstraZeneca signed purchasing agreement with EU one day before its agreement with UK.

AZ CEO told an EP hearing last month that UK priority comes from research funding agreement Oxford signed with UK gov in Jan/Feb 2020, inherited by AZ when it partnered with Oxford in May 2020.

Keating is making a very narrow technical point when he says the EU signed a purchasing agreement the day before the UK did. The fact is there was no immediate hurry for the UK to conclude precise purchase terms because priority of supply was already established, thanks to the UK government’s foresight in:

1. Funding vaccine research well before covid became a problem in the UK
2. Insisting that the eventual product must be manufactured in the UK so that supply to the UK could be assured
3. Ensuring terms relating to priority of supply were written in from the outset, and
4. Ensuring those terms were rolled on to AsraZeneca when it received the contract to manufacture.

UK priority does not arise from a later, but better, agreement than the one the EU signed. It arises from funding, negotiations and a priority of supply agreement between the UK and Oxford, and latterly AZ, that was all in place much, much earlier.

In this context the UK’s later conclusion of purchase terms is irrelevant - all the important supply terms were already in place.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I guess the US can afford to be perfectionist on this as its vaccination programme is going very well. However, surely any trial data has been superseded by the mass vaccination programmes in place across the World using the AstraZeneca vaccine.

I guess the issue is that while nobody is disputing it's safe and effective it's the absence of clear data from clinically controlled trials (and against variants) that makes it difficult to quantify how much and where to deploy which is why there is the call for transparency.

It might also make Governments rethink incentives to push people to get vaccinated if the herd immunity threshold is only going to be achieved with near 100% uptake.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Two months plus ago is a long time in Covid vaccination production. My understanding is that Merck is now a parallel supplier to Croda and ramping up production all the time. However, putting this aside, Pfizer is a US company and its EU plant produces vaccine for all countries outside the US. Yes, even Canada has to get its Pfizer vaccines delivered from Belgium! For this reason, I am sure that Pfizer could tap its US supplier to temporarily fill a gap in UK supply. But I am happy to go on record and predict that Pfizer exports to the UK will not be banned.


Hugh cited the journalist Dave Keating's Tweet yesterday reiterating the EU deal was signed a day before the UK one. We all agree that the UK deal was more tightly worded meaning that no Covid 19 vaccines have been exported from the UK whilst needed in this country. By contrast, the EU has exported some 41 million vaccine doses with a quarter of these going to the UK.

June 2020

AstraZeneca has reached an agreement with Europe’s Inclusive Vaccines Alliance (IVA), spearheaded by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, to supply up to 400 million doses of the University of Oxford’s COVID-19 vaccine, with deliveries starting by the end of 2020.
...
The Company has recently completed similar agreements with the UK, US, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations and Gavi the Vaccine Alliance for 700 million doses, and it agreed a licence with the Serum Institute of India for the supply of an additional one billion doses, principally for low- and middle-income countries. Total manufacturing capacity currently stands at two billion doses.

Link

The bloc signed a deal in August for 300 million doses, with an option for 100 million more.

May 2020

Meanwhile, Oxford University signed a global licensing agreement with AstraZeneca for the manufacturing and commercialisation of their vaccine candidate. If the vaccine is successful, AstraZeneca will produce up to 30 million doses by September for people in the UK. The agreement is for the pharmaceutical company to deliver a total of 100 million doses.
Business Secretary Alok Sharma said: “Our scientists are at the forefront of vaccine development. This deal with AstraZeneca means that if the Oxford University vaccine works, people in the UK will get the first access to it, helping to protect thousands of lives.

Link

And some components used in making the vaccine may be made at yet another location. For example, a UK company called Croda is supplying a component to Pfizer to make its vaccine.
The lipid components - fat molecules used to encase the virus's fragile genetic material and transport it into the body - are in relatively short supply, according to science data company Airfinity.

The EU has ordered 400 million doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine.
The company says supplies are coming mainly from the US and a site in Seneffe in Belgium. AstraZeneca is working with suppliers in 15 countries to make the vaccine.
A site in Leiden in the Netherlands is also producing some vaccine, although the pharmaceutical company said it was not significant.
AstraZeneca confirmed that the UK has not received any vaccines or components from the EU - apart from one "tiny" batch from the Leiden plant.

Link

The VTF’s strategy was to move quickly to strike deals with the most promising vaccine candidates. This approach, together with the efforts made by suppliers, has offered several advantages to the UK and ultimately enabled the rapid availability of COVID-19 vaccines in the UK. The UK was the first country in the world to secure access to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine and to start deploying it as an authorised vaccine (under Regulation 174). The UK was also the first country to procure, authorise (under Regulation 174) and commence deployment of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.

The AZ vaccine used technology funded by the UK way back in 2016.

The need to invest in vaccines and develop them quickly in a pandemic was recognised by government well ahead of COVID-19. The UK government took concerted and coordinated action to invest £120m between 2016 and 2021 for the development of new vaccines, in line with the expert advice provided by the UKVN, made up of leading experts from academia, industry and policy. The UKVN funded Oxford University £1.87m to develop a MERS (another coronavirus) vaccine. This MERS vaccine technology was rapidly repurposed to develop a COVID-19 vaccine using initial funding from an NIHR and UKRI research call launched in February.
In April the government announced £20m of further funding so that the Oxford clinical trials could commence immediately.

The UK was funding development of the AZ vaccine more than a year ago.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by nomadking

June 2020
Link
May 2020
Link
Link
The AZ vaccine used technology funded by the UK way back in 2016.
The UK was funding development of the AZ vaccine more than a year ago.

Do get out old chap, its a lovely day, spring flowers, birds singing etc.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'd like to put something forward that touches both Covid and Brexit.

1/
Covid doesn't care about the EU or the UK. But Covid has laid low both the EU and UK.

2/
Accordingly, Single Market, Free Movement, Customs Union - they have little relevance to the UK in the Covid context (not speaking for other EU countries).

3/
Covid is something where the population are important stakeholders. The EU, as we know, is not a nation state. To act on behalf of all EU nations where there is no particular competence (as with Covid), the agreement of all 27 members is required such that specific powers are conferred on the EC.

4/
What would have been the case if the UK had been an EU member? Is there a clue when, in the transition year, the UK was invited to join the EU vaccine procurement collective? Presuming that the Oxford Vaccine (and AZ) were all lined up from earlier in the year, I don't think the UK government would have wished to support the EU proposition.

5/
But then if May had remained PM, she would almost certainly have locked on to the EU proposition.

6/
Because the need to survive (a pandemic) trumps everything except public order, the UK people expect the government to pay close attention to its own. The EU is proving itself to be an enemy - a real enemy. I think that Boris' current approach, in so far as we can glean, is the right one. Not to threaten, maintain reticence, hold the line and let the EU keep on being the bad boys.

7/
How right we were to leave the EU. Our lives matter more than the Single Market.

But let's not forget it is in the UKs interest for EU states to get over the pandemic and open up for business. Every time trade figures come out, some people go 'aha, Brexit!' and others go 'aha, COVID!' If the 'aha COVID!' people are right, then the restoring of normal economic activity in the EU can only be a good thing for the UKs trade figures.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

But let's not forget it is in the UKs interest for EU states to get over the pandemic and open up for business. Every time trade figures come out, some people go 'aha, Brexit!' and others go 'aha, COVID!' If the 'aha COVID!' people are right, then the restoring of normal economic activity in the EU can only be a good thing for the UKs trade figures.

Little point letting people from the EU into this country, if we still have a large number of people in this country yet unvaccinated.
As things stand, the EU is so large and behind in vaccinating people, that whatever is done it will be a long time before it would be safe for people from the EU to come here.
If pretty much the whole of the UK has been vaccinated, then there would be a lot less risk in allowing people to come here, and for people from the UK to go elsewhere(eg Spain). If X% of the UK were not yet vaccinated, that X% would be at risk from EU visitors, or to the EU if they went there.


One EU leader gets it.

Irish Taoiseach Micheal Martin warned that a ban would be 'a very retrograde step' which would prove counter-productive.
Mr Martin, who could face the prospect of the EU imposing a hard border with Northern Ireland to prevent vaccines entering the UK, said he had made it 'very clear' to fellow leaders he was opposed.
'They're not EU vaccines,' he said. 'These are vaccines paid for by other countries that are manufactured in Europe.'

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

But let's not forget it is in the UKs interest for EU states to get over the pandemic and open up for business. Every time trade figures come out, some people go 'aha, Brexit!' and others go 'aha, COVID!' If the 'aha COVID!' people are right, then the restoring of normal economic activity in the EU can only be a good thing for the UKs trade figures.

I may be wrong, Jon, but the EU is out to get us. They are pursuing the UK for various alleged past infringements and, at least in the short term, there is very little there for us.

If they go so far as to ban vaccine exports, then the UK is in a life threatening position. All trust and conciliation would be lost and we might as well abandon the treaty because of the EU’s act of aggression.

We can build trade elsewhere. The EC is a nasty, vindictive executive and if the 27 nations back what the EC proposes then there is little point in pretending that they are worthwhile partners.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

But let's not forget it is in the UKs interest for EU states to get over the pandemic and open up for business. Every time trade figures come out, some people go 'aha, Brexit!' and others go 'aha, COVID!' If the 'aha COVID!' people are right, then the restoring of normal economic activity in the EU can only be a good thing for the UKs trade figures.

Surely it's in the UK's interests for every country to be vaccinated? It stops the virus spreading as much and therefore reduces its opportunity to mutate with its consequences on the need to limit overseas travel and the need for new vaccines.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Surely it's in the UK's interests for every country to be vaccinated? It stops the virus spreading as much and therefore reduces its opportunity to mutate with its consequences on the need to limit overseas travel and the need for new vaccines.

The EC is acting as in EU first which contrasts with your desire. Of course you are right, provided there is enough to go round.

I pay my taxes for the UK government to protect me, not France, etc. I expect the government to act accordingly including red-listing EU countries immediately.

[Carth]

May I butt in with a couple of questions?

Has it yet been proven that the vaccine prevents you from catching Covid-19?

If it doesn't, can you catch it and spread it to others?

If you've had the first and second jab, then go out and mingle with people who have tested positive, would you still be 'told' by track & trace to isolate for a week?

It seems (to a fikko like me) that there are more grey areas than a library (remember those? ) full of pensioners

Originally Posted by Mr K

Do get out old chap, its a lovely day, spring flowers, birds singing etc.

Good advice.

For him.

Few days leave from this topic granted. [Amended to at least 2 days]

Cable Forum Topic holidays. ATOL Protected.

I am not taking part in any silences or clapping. I'm not patting this government on it's back particularly for the shabby way they are treating the nurses when if they had locked down at least a month earlier more lives might have been saved. Closing the borders was the FIRST thing they should have done.The only thing they got right was supporting finding a vaccine which was the very least thing they have done. The ONLY people who deserve any accolades are the key workers which is better dealt with by paying them a decent wage and hopefully a bonus.