Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Their families will be told that collateral damage happens in war and is a consequence of letting Hamas come to power.

And they’ll find that completely implausible just as most of us did in this thread.

Essentially tens of thousands will have nothing to live for but revenge since Israel have decimated the economy and infrastructure. The consequences of this are entirely predictable.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

And they’ll find that completely implausible just as most of us did in this thread.

Essentially tens of thousands will have nothing to live for but revenge since Israel have decimated the economy and infrastructure. The consequences of this are entirely predictable.

Exactly.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not wiping out Hamas, and showing what will happen to any other groups that might fancy carrying out another Oct 7th, could potentially cause them more long term damage, than their “image”

You can't actually believe that so I'll assume you're just trolling as usual

[jfman]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You can't actually believe that so I'll assume you're just trolling as usual

In fairness to Pierre, he’s been fairly consistent on two points:

• Only nation states have the right to use force to achieve their objectives (and largely without restraint.)
  
• Military force acts as a deterrent.

We’ve went round and round on the first, there’s no need to revisit.

On the second he’s largely right. For 99% of people it is a deterrent. The problem is that 1% of 1.6 million people is 16,000. Their still to be born children thousands more. October 7th was perpetrated by an estimated 3,000 Hamas fighters.

[ianch99]

Someone is lying:

‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza

Dr Fozia Alvi was making her rounds of the intensive care unit on her final day at the battered European public hospital in southern Gaza when she stopped next to two young arrivals with facial injuries and breathing tubes in their windpipes.

“I asked the nurse, what’s the history? She said that they were brought in a couple of hours ago. They had sniper shots to the brain. They were seven or eight years old,” she said.

The Canadian doctor’s heart sank. These were not the first children treated by Alvi who she was told were targeted by Israeli soldiers, and she knew the damage a single high-calibre bullet could do to a fragile young body.

“They were not able to talk, paraplegic. They were literally lying down as vegetables on those beds. They were not the only ones. I saw even small children with direct sniper shot wounds to the head as well as in the chest. They were not combatants, they were small children,” said Alvi.

IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive

Originally Posted by 1701-e

Israel killing aid workers accidentally...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949 Yep we believe you

So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by jfman

In fairness to Pierre, he’s been fairly consistent on two points:

• Only nation states have the right to use force to achieve their objectives (and largely without restraint.)
  
• Military force acts as a deterrent.

We’ve went round and round on the first, there’s no need to revisit.

On the second he’s largely right. For 99% of people it is a deterrent. The problem is that 1% of 1.6 million people is 16,000. Their still to be born children thousands more. October 7th was perpetrated by an estimated 3,000 Hamas fighters.

It's not a deterrent at all, the first Intifada was stone throwers and the odd riot, Israel's disproportionate use of force led directly to the second intifada with its suicide bombers and the rise of hamas, what will this wholly disproportionate response lead to peace or something worse, history tells us something worse

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

Originally Posted by Paul

So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?

Kinda helps with the old starve the population tactic

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?

Deterrence.

Less aid workers means less aid. The campaign of starvation proceeds with the cover of plausible deniability. Less aid workers means less witnesses, and saves Israel from having to deploy false claims of antisemitism (at best) or aiding terrorism (at worst).

Applying our own moral rationale to a military force, and other state apparatus, that burns hospitals to the ground, kills women and children under sniper fire, tortures prisoners and rapes Palestinian women starts with a flawed premise.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Kinda helps with the old starve the population tactic

Straws and grasping springs to mind.
Killing a few aid workers isnt going to starve the population, it is, however, going to alienate their diminishing support. However defiant they may be in public, they need to keep their allies on board, not to mention their own people, who I seriously doubt think killing aid workers is a great idea. As I understand it, their PM is already under pressure.

Originally Posted by Paul

So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?

I don't think they killed them on purpose but I don't think they stop to check much or really care who gets in the way. It's just indiscrimiante bombing if they somewhat suspect they might be Hamas. So long as they think that then they don't bother to be careful, they don't double check, they level everything in sight and any civilians be damned.

These workers did everything right. https://archive.ph/FaTpm

They were working in a zone previously approved by the IDF for humanitarian aid. They coordinated with the IDF where they would be. They had their symbols on the truck.

But the IDF suspect there was an armed man and that man might be a terrorist. Even though they couldn't be sure and that the man never left with the trucks they decided to bomb anyway.

At some point, when the convoy was driving along the approved route, the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route ordered the drone operators to attack one of the cars with a missile.

Some of the passengers were seen leaving the car after it was hit and switching to one of the other two cars. They continued to drive and even notified the people responsible that they were attacked, but, seconds later, another missile hit their car.

The third car in the convoy approached, and the passengers began to transfer to it the wounded who had survived the second strike – in order to get them out of danger. But then a third missile struck them. All seven World Central Kitchen volunteers were killed in the strike.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Paul

So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?

Three separate attacks on three different, identified vehicles who notified the IDF of their journey in advance.

One vehicle bombed might be seen generously as a mistake but three vehicles individually bombed looks intentional. Whether that's by a lone wolf or something bigger.

The aim has been achieved - the agency has stopped its operations and 240 tonnes of aid is returning to Cyprus. This is consistent with Israel preventing aid getting across the border to the extent that its greatest ally, the US, has had to build a temporary dock to bring aid into the country.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-what...rkers-13106653

[jfman]

So essentially they did decide that the lives of multiple aid workers, in multiple strikes, was a price worth paying for an "armed man" who "might be a terrorist" who "might" be with them.

If they do that with aid workers (almost certain to include foreign nationals) you wonder what the price worth paying is in Palestinian lives in each mosque, church or hospital strike, never mind the general razing of civilian areas to the ground.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think they killed them on purpose but I don't think they stop to check much or really care who gets in the way. It's just indiscrimiante bombing if they somewhat suspect they might be Hamas. So long as they think that then they don't bother to be careful, they don't double check, they level everything in sight and any civilians be damned.

These workers did everything right. https://archive.ph/FaTpm

They were working in a zone previously approved by the IDF for humanitarian aid. They coordinated with the IDF where they would be. They had their symbols on the truck.

But the IDF suspect there was an armed man and that man might be a terrorist. Even though they couldn't be sure and that the man never left with the trucks they decided to bomb anyway.

Grim as it is, that's the story the IDF would like us to believe.

I'd like to think it's all cock-up over conspiracy but there does seem to be an anti-aid pattern here, be it blocking check points and outlawing the UN agency. This seems a continuation of that policy.

The conspiracy mongers (and Hamas spokespeople) are out in force today.

I hear they attacked 5G cell towers as well.

or .... the simplest explanation is generally the right one.

The IDF screwed up, the idea they suddenly decided to target aid workers and piss off all their allies is right up there in la la land.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Paul

The conspiracy mongers (and Hamas spokespeople) are out in force today.

I hear they attacked 5G cell towers as well.

or .... the simplest explanation is generally the right one.

The IDF screwed up, the idea they suddenly decided to target aid workers and piss off all their allies is right up there in la la land.

So, there's two theories:
1) The IDF think that seven overseas aid workers lives are worth expending to kill one terrorist, despite the international uproar.
2) The IDF think that seven overseas aid workers lives are worth expending if it means that food distribution is significantly slowed down, depsite the international uproar.

If you've had a chance to read much about the bombings of the three vehicles, you'll see that each was precision bombed.

I'm all for the cock-up theory and would love to hear what it is, but I don't think even the IDF are putting one forward. The first theory seems to be the one closest to the IDF's line, if the article Damien linked to is reliable.