Hamas Israel War

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

There is a huge gap between what you write, condemning Israel as distinct from condemning Hamas.

I know exactly what you mean: It's the question as to whether or not Israel should continue its mission in the light of the civilian deaths.

Your answer is obviously 'No'. But you are not on the receiving end of Hamas rockets; you were not involved in the barbaric murders of 1200 Israelis. From Israel's point of view, eliminating Hamas is the goal they must achieve.

Then you'll say that Hamas will never be eliminated; the next generation will rise from the ashes etc. And then you might go on to say that a political solution for 2-states must be negotiated to avoid the next catastrophe..

Well yes, you'd probably be right but the 2-state solution requires will on both sides and that includes the Ultras of Israel and the cooperation of Iran. All pigs will fly stuff.

So what will stop the Israeli military action?

1. They've captured the Hamas leaders;

2. They declare their mission accomplished. That's possible and 31-Dec looms.

3. External political pressure (and no further supply of materiel) wins the day.

I know how to answer you. I can quite see why you don't know how to answer me.

You have not asked a cogent question from what I can see. Maybe you should rephrase it?

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Who would want Gaza? It was Egyptian territory in 1976 and they didn't want it back.

Poor Israel, one might say. Now look what's happened.

The Palestinians, as part of their 2 state solution.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Who would want Gaza?

Obviously the Palestinians who live there as they have nowhere else to live. But without governance by the corrupt, underfunded and ineffectual Palestinian Authority or the Hamas dictatorship.

And I think some members of the more right-wing members of the current Israeli government want it too.

Since much of it is now demolished, whoever "wants" it is going to have to spend a lot of time & money rebuilding it (and hope its not all destroyed again).

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Even the USA are starting to wobble on backing the ongoing slaughter in Gaza:

Biden says Netanyahu must change Israel government, losing global support

He also said that ultimately Israel "can't say no" to a Palestinian state, which Israeli hardliners oppose.

What if Palestinians say no to a Palestine state (whilst Israel exists) which is what they have done……repeatedly?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You have not asked a cogent question from what I can see. Maybe you should rephrase it?

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------



The Palestinians, as part of their 2 state solution.

What 2-state solution? Do the Palestinians think that is going to happen?

That's 2x cogent questions I've asked.

You appear to be confusing "questions you’ve asked which you believe are cogent" and "cogent questions"…

Just because you believe they are cogent does not make it true…

Stick to the topic please, this nitpicking is getting tiresome.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

In relevant news, Israels foreign minister has stated Israel will continue the war "with or without international support".

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You appear to be confusing "questions you’ve asked which you believe are cogent" and "cogent questions"…

Just because you believe they are cogent does not make it true…

Deleted by Seph. The email will suffice.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

What 2-state solution? Do the Palestinians think that is going to happen?

That's 2x cogent questions I've asked.

I have already posted my answer to the first question and the answer to the second is that I am guessing that most do but less over time as Israel continues their campaign of revenge.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I have already posted my answer to the first question and the answer to the second is that I am guessing that most do but less over time as Israel continues their campaign of revenge.

I genuinely believe that you are not thinking straight due to some form of bias.

There can be little doubt that Israel's actions include a "revenge" element. But it is not a "campaign of revenge" - it is a campaign to eliminate Hamas.

It shows some form of conscious bias that you skew your answers so as to make Israel the villain. It's all very well t say that you've already condemned Hamas; but you condemn Israel in every post and then complain when I point out how one sided you are.

Plus, of course, you have no idea on what else Israel should have done following 7-Oct's barbarism by Hamas.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Israel continues their campaign of revenge.

It’s evident you have me on ignore. These words show you for who you are, what you think and that you are not in this discussion impartially or in good faith.

Which is fine.

We know now you.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I have already posted my answer to the first question and the answer to the second is that I am guessing that most do but less over time as Israel continues their campaign of revenge.

Interesting term, revenge campaign, not sure I'd have come up with that but President Biden made a speech the other day where he said words to the effect of Israel is losing international support due to indiscriminate bombing and then a non binding vote 153 countries voted for an end to the violence with an immediate ceasefire, 12 more than what criticised Russia so strongly for invading Ukraine, so I'd say he had a point. I also see that Biden imposed new sanctions on the leaders of hamas too going after their finances but according to Sephiroth I was talking pie in the sky when suggesting that as he said I was when saying hamas would take over the west bank too if they weren't stopped and guess what, support for them there is growing massively although that's not really surprising when 13 year old children are being killed there and the sick are made to wait in ambulances till they die, that's without mentioning the thousands rounded up for a bit of detention without trial and a roughing up in there no doubt, anyway back to revenge campaign, 18500 dead that we know of well over 50000 injured and thousands more buried under rubble and Israeli officials begging the world not to believe the figures, probably because they're just to horrifying

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Interesting term, revenge campaign, not sure I'd have come up with that but President Biden made a speech the other day where he said words to the effect of Israel is losing international support due to indiscriminate bombing and then a non binding vote 153 countries voted for an end to the violence with an immediate ceasefire, 12 more than what criticised Russia so strongly for invading Ukraine, so I'd say he had a point. I also see that Biden imposed new sanctions on the leaders of hamas too going after their finances but according to Sephiroth I was talking pie in the sky when suggesting that as he said I was when saying hamas would take over the west bank too if they weren't stopped and guess what, support for them there is growing massively although that's not really surprising when 13 year old children are being killed there and the sick are made to wait in ambulances till they die, that's without mentioning the thousands rounded up for a bit of detention without trial and a roughing up in there no doubt, anyway back to revenge campaign, 18500 dead that we know of well over 50000 injured and thousands more buried under rubble and Israeli officials begging the world not to believe the figures, probably because they're just to horrifying

"Revenge"

the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands

Seems fair to me. Don't forget, Israel has effectively locked down Gaza from external monitoring so what they are doing there, to a large extent, is beyond prying eyes.

Whether this was the plan at the beginning, we'll never know but what is playing out now is the ethnic cleaning of at least northern Gaza. The wholesale destruction of housing, plus, more importantly, hospitals & schools means that resettlement, even if allowed, would be an immense challenge.

Likud are now saying the quiet bits out loud:

'We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023,' Israeli Minister Says on Northern Gaza Strip Evacuation

Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) was asked in a news interview on Saturday whether the images of northern Gaza Strip residents evacuating south on the IDF’s orders are comparable to images of the Nakba. He replied: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war – as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza – with masses between the tanks and the soldiers.”

When asked again whether this was the “Gaza Nakba”, Dichter – a member of the security cabinet and former Shin Bet director – said “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.”

When later asked if this means Gaza City residents won’t be allowed to return, he replied: “I don’t know how it’ll end up happening since Gaza City is one-third of the Strip – half the land’s population but a third of the territory.”

For reference, the Nakba is commonly defined as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. 'the catastrophe') refers to the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, along with the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe the events of 1948, as well as the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians throughout the region, including the occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip)

---------- Post added at 10:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I genuinely believe that you are not thinking straight due to some form of bias.

There can be little doubt that Israel's actions include a "revenge" element. But it is not a "campaign of revenge" - it is a campaign to eliminate Hamas.

It shows some form of conscious bias that you skew your answers so as to make Israel the villain. It's all very well t say that you've already condemned Hamas; but you condemn Israel in every post and then complain when I point out how one sided you are.

Plus, of course, you have no idea on what else Israel should have done following 7-Oct's barbarism by Hamas.

Yet again, I have condemned Hamas multiple times but they are not currently killing Israelis by the thousands. Israel, however, are killing Gazans by the thousands hence the ongoing commentary on their actions. It really is quite a basic concept.

I have answered the question before on what I personally think they should have done post Oct 7, as has others, so stop trolling me.

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

It’s evident you have me on ignore. These words show you for who you are, what you think and that you are not in this discussion impartially or in good faith.

Which is fine.

We know now you.

Bless

[1andrew1]

Good questions from Sky News

Israel's open rejection of a 'two-state solution' undermines US Middle East policy

There is no longer any pretence. Israel is no longer dancing around the idea of two states. It isn't going to happen - that is their policy....

America's backing for Israel's military offensive, which has now killed more than 18,000 Gazans, is predicated on the policy of two states at some point after.

Yet it's clear now that America is backing Israel militarily, with US weapons and funding, despite two starkly different end point objectives.

The ambassador's remarks now put Israel in open defiance of every American president's policy going back 40 years.

For many observers, Israel's objection to two states has been clear for years.

The facts on the ground have been shifting for decades and have accelerated in recent years, under the latest iteration of Netanyahu's government, with illegal Jewish settlements expanding rapidly in the occupied West Bank.

The scale and brutality of the Hamas attacks of 7 October have allowed Israel to make its objectives plain.

Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible? Israel is razing the strip.

The question is - how will America now respond to this?

If it is one state not two, then how does that possibly work? Equal rights for all? How do Israelis and Palestinians power share?

The truth is, they can't. So where now?

https://news.sky.com/story/israels-o...olicy-13029952

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by ianch99

"Revenge"

Seems fair to me. Don't forget, Israel has effectively locked down Gaza from external monitoring so what they are doing there, to a large extent, is beyond prying eyes.

Whether this was the plan at the beginning, we'll never know but what is playing out now is the ethnic cleaning of at least northern Gaza. The wholesale destruction of housing, plus, more importantly, hospitals & schools means that resettlement, even if allowed, would be an immense challenge.

Likud are now saying the quiet bits out loud:


For reference, the Nakba is commonly defined as:

Bless

Yes killing scores of journalists and aid workers is a pretty effective way of removing the prying eyes