Hamas Israel War

[noel43]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No, it’s got nothing to do with what I believe

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He is, and undoubtedly will step down after the military action is concluded. I doubt very much it will be before.

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Do you think the US army placed little value on the lives of British soldiers they mistakenly killed and injured in the numerous blue on blue attacks that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less

Once is an accident, three times is targeted.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It's horrific, any numbers of children killed, on both sides.

A very sad fact.

The israeli children were not in a war zone, and their safety couldn't be guaranteed either.

The numbers of children killed on “both sides” aren’t even comparable.

A small number have been killed by terrorists a much larger number have been systematically killed by a 21st century military which, should, be adhering to international laws.

As a thought experiment it’d be interesting to know what the difference between what Israel are doing now would compare to ethnic cleansing that maintains itself just on the right side of plausible deniability.

You couldn’t, as an example, carpet bomb the place.
You’d pretend there were terrorists everywhere, hiding underground, and claim these were surgical strikes.

You couldn’t ban aid agencies.
You’d make it difficult for them to operate. Tying up aid in bureaucracy, closing some roads and discourage aid workers by devaluing your own “guarantees” of safety by creating situations where aid workers were “collateral damaged”.

You couldn’t just close hospitals.
However by waiting until everyone seeks refuge there the pretence that there are terrorists underground there would allow you to hinder their ability to function. Something that’d have a disproportionate impact on the young, the old, those with long term health issues and pregnant women.

The differences are wafer thin from this vantage point.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

The numbers of children killed on “both sides” aren’t even comparable.

Yet to some they are and that is why they keep dying.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Yet to some they are and that is why they keep dying.

That's because they're parroting Netanyahu's lines without applying any critical thinking to what they're repeating. They've chosen a side like a football team and are supporting it regardless of the evidence. Hence adopting lines like:

• Yeah, but what about 7 October? and variations of this line to provide false equivalence.
• The three bombings a distance apart at different times in a demilitarised zone were just one unfortunate mistake in a war zone.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by noel43

Once is an accident, three times is targeted.

Three times is a targeted accident. If They thought the convoy contained Hamas fighters then they’ll blow them all up.

If in the fig of war they made a mistake then they made a mistake but if they fully knew that convoy had nothing but innocent aid workers in it and they fired on it, in full knowledge of that fact.

Then the soldiers involved should be arrested for murder.

I just struggle to think that would happen. Perhaps I just look to the best in people.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

That's because they're parroting Netanyahu's lines without applying any critical thinking to what they're repeating. They've chosen a side like a football team and are supporting it regardless of the evidence. Hence adopting lines like:

• Yeah, but what about 7 October? and variations of this line to provide false equivalence.
• The three bombings a distance apart at different times in a demilitarised zone were just one unfortunate mistake in a war zone.

Very true, Andrew. There is also an element of those who are being killed are, in some way, not equivalent to those on the Israeli side. 10,000+ dead Gazan children in some way still do not balance the 50 or so Israelis (under 18) killed on 6th Oct.

Also, you know when things are are bad, when Nick Ferrari, from LBC, says it is now time to stopped sending UK weapons to Israel.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Three times is a targeted accident. If They thought the convoy contained Hamas fighters then they’ll blow them all up.

If in the fig of war they made a mistake then they made a mistake but if they fully knew that convoy had nothing but innocent aid workers in it and they fired on it, in full knowledge of that fact.

Then the soldiers involved should be arrested for murder.

I just struggle to think that would happen. Perhaps I just look to the best in people.

It’s not the “fog of war” if, as the Israeli line claims, there’s a single person on the ground who might have a weapon, might be a terrorist and might have got in a car.

It was an execution.

Israel simply rolled the dice once too often and it was white people in the car.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

The numbers of children killed on “both sides” aren’t even comparable.

I wasn’t comparing them, looks like you are though. I don’t believe in a sliding scale of atrocity.

A small number have been killed by terrorists

Nothing to see here, just accept it and move on, in fact you should budget for a small annual headcount of children that will be unfortunately killed by terrorists, your fault for being Zionists anyway

a much larger number have been systematically killed by a 21st century military which, should, be adhering to international laws.

It’s not the fact it’s a military doing it, to add insult it’s a Zionist Jewish military, which makes it so much worse.

Otherwise I would have been on here remonstrating about the Saudi Military killing children and causing famine in Yemen, except I didn’t. We’re only bothered about this because Israel is doing it.

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1

That's because they're parroting Netanyahu's lines without applying any critical thinking to what they're repeating. They've chosen a side like a football team and are supporting it regardless of the evidence. Hence adopting lines like:[LIST][*]Yeah, but what about 7 October? and variations of this line to provide false equivalence.

Like I say, I don’t put a sliding scale on atrocities, or assign a number to what is acceptable or not.

Seems you do though.

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Originally Posted by ianch99

Very true, Andrew. There is also an element of those who are being killed are, in some way, not equivalent to those on the Israeli side. 10,000+ dead Gazan children in some way still do not balance the 50 or so Israelis (under 18) killed on 6th Oct.

Also, you know when things are are bad, when Nick Ferrari, from LBC, says it is now time to stopped sending UK weapons to Israel.

As I say, I don’t assign a scale, seems you have though.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I wasn’t comparing them, looks like you are though. I don’t believe in a sliding scale of atrocity.

Everyone believes in a sliding scale of atrocity. It’s what sets apart events like the Holocaust from other acts of genocide or ethnic cleansing, Hiroshima or Nagasaki from day in day out events in small scale conflicts.

Nothing to see here, just accept it and move on, in fact you should budget for a small annual headcount of children that will be unfortunately killed by terrorists, your fault for being Zionists anyway

It’s not the fact it’s a military doing it, to add insult it’s a Zionist Jewish military, which makes it so much worse.

Otherwise I would have been on here remonstrating about the Saudi Military killing children and causing famine in Yemen, except I didn’t. We’re only bothered about this because Israel is doing it.

So many straw men you should ask Netanyahu if he wants them to man the border to prevent the next October 7.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not the “fog of war” if, as the Israeli line claims, there’s a single person on the ground who might have a weapon, might be a terrorist and might have got in a car.

It was an execution.

Israel simply rolled the dice once too often and it was white people in the car.

Did I not, just say if guilty they should be arrested for murder?.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Did I not, just say if guilty they should be arrested for murder?.

You put an important caveat:

if they fully knew that convoy had nothing but innocent aid workers

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Everyone believes in a sliding scale of atrocity. It’s what sets apart events like the Holocaust from other acts of genocide or ethnic cleansing, Hiroshima or Nagasaki from day in day out events in small scale conflicts.

You said the evils visited upon the Jews in the Holocaust as “irrelevant”, earlier in this thread.

So why would you use it to draw any distinction now?

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Originally Posted by jfman

You put an important caveat:

Because it is an important caveat.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

You said the evils visited upon the Jews in the Holocaust as “irrelevant”, earlier in this thread.

So why would you use it to draw any distinction now?

It’s irrelevant if you are using it as the sole barometer of whether something constitutes genocide or ethnic cleansing, or a basis for justifying Israeli actions today.

The very existence of the word Holocaust proves that the general population does have a sliding scale of atrocities, whether you do or do not.

Because it is an important caveat.

It’s a caveat that justifies and excuses the killing of innocent aid workers for the flimsiest of reasons, at the lowest of confidence levels with no immediate risk to Israel or Israeli assets in the occupied territories.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s a caveat that justifies and excuses the killing of innocent aid workers for the flimsiest of reasons, at the lowest of confidence levels with no immediate risk to Israel or Israeli assets in the occupied territories.

It’s not flimsy.

If they had incorrect intelligence given to them or had mistakenly observed the individuals or for whatever other reason they thought that convoy contained Hamas soldiers. Then they legitimately fired upon it.

No doubt an investigation will determine what happened.

But as long as they didn’t deliberately fire upon a target that they knew to be innocent aid workers, and there’s no evidence either way at the moment. Then as unfortunate as it is, at the moment, it is a tragic mistake. Or a failure in command and control, and/or negligence.

That needs to be investigated and prevented from happening in the future.

But to suggest IDF deliberately murdered those people is absolutely baseless, at this moment.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

You put an important caveat:

I think you have made a good point here: the rationale was "if there was a chance of a Hamas operative being in the vehicles (spoiler alert: there wasn't), then kill them all". It is a rationale being applied to all of Gaza: if there is a chance Hamas maybe in a location then just kill everyone there.

The absence of basic humanity and morality is chilling. I do think this aid convoy massacre will prove a turning point. I suspect Sunak is under real pressure to stop sending bombs to Israel since to do so, is to aid & abet what is now playing out in Gaza.