Russia has invaded Ukraine

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Chris

I never said you liked him.

I didn't say that you said that. You said that I " would present Putin as someone misunderstood and misguided rather than what he is". I haven't said anything like that. I'm also not saying that provocation is mitigation.

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

One of the issues is that you claim the two countries to be as bad as each other.

No one is the most corrupt, the other the second most corrupt

Do you not agree that one country which invades another country illegally makes that country worse than the country being invaded?

Absolutely agree

The point I'm trying to make is that Zelensky is the head of a staggeringly corrupt country and he's now being feted as a hero. I strongly suspect he's not.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

No one is the most corrupt, the other the second most corrupt

They both suffer from corruption but the aggressive actions of Russia make it the worse country.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

The point I'm trying to make is that Zelensky is the head of a staggeringly corrupt country and he's now being feted as a hero. I strongly suspect he's not.

Zelensky took the helm at a country suffering from corruption which had been invaded five years earlier by Russia with a new mass invasion taking place a couple of years since he took power.

I think that it's unreasonable for him to turn the country's corruption around quickly and his current subsuming issue is fighting for the survival of the country. In terms of motivating the country, his wartime leadership, his ability to get resources from the West there can be few in his country that don't see him as a hero and I suspect most of the West see him as a hero. That's why he was awarded Man of the Year by Time magazine. https://time.com/person-of-the-year-...kraine-choice/

As Chris has suggested, the impression gleaned from your points you make is of someone whose expressed opinions of Zelensky and Ukraine follow Putin's playbook, albeit likely totally unknowingly.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I'm also not saying that provocation is mitigation.

And yet that is what true provocation is. Simply asserting that Russia was provoked creates a context in which its subsequent actions may be viewed less critically. Phrases like ‘Russia was provoked’ and ‘Russia has legitimate security concerns’ are shared freely on the bulletin boards of the world but they are just smokescreens for the Tsarist ambitions of a tyrant. Repeating them adds to the propaganda campaign that seeks to mitigate in Russia’s favour.

You may not have intended to do this, but by digesting and repeating the commentary emanating from the sources you appear to prefer, this is what you’re doing. You may not personally be attempting to create a more sympathetic hearing for Russia but those who are ultimately behind this most certainly do. In your attempt to sound even-handed you’re acting in the service of those who wish to create (at best) a moral equivalence between Ukraine and Russia.

In terms of who invaded who, and who is trying to stop genocide, there really, really isn’t any moral equivalence at all. And right now, while people are dying in their thousands, that’s what matters, because from the Ukrainian perspective, if they stop fighting, their people’s suffering will only increase.

[Ramrod]

And yet that is what true provocation is. Simply asserting that Russia was provoked creates a context in which its subsequent actions may be viewed less critically. Phrases like ‘Russia was provoked’ and ‘Russia has legitimate security concerns’ are shared freely on the bulletin boards of the world but they are just smokescreens for the Tsarist ambitions of a tyrant. Repeating them adds to the propaganda campaign that seeks to mitigate in Russia’s favour.

I hear you and understand your point. I (and many others ) do however think that Russia was provoked. That isn't Russian misinformation but obviously Putins keyboard warriors are out there pushing and embellishing that narrative as hard as possible. Just because they are doing that doesn't make the core fact false.

You may not have intended to do this, but by digesting and repeating the commentary emanating from the sources you appear to prefer, this is what you’re doing. You may not personally be attempting to create a more sympathetic hearing for Russia but those who are ultimately behind this most certainly do. In your attempt to sound even-handed you’re acting in the service of those who wish to create (at best) a moral equivalence between Ukraine and Russia.

Let me be clear. I'm not trying to sound even handed. What Russia is doing is terrible and there is no "moral equivalence" between the two countries when it comes to the conflict.
I just don't think that Zelensky should be put on a pedestal just because his country has been invaded. He didn't turn into Snow White because of it. He is just as corrupt as the rest of them and now is being given billions with little accountability.

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I think that it's unreasonable for him to turn the country's corruption around quickly

Up till the invasion, I had seen no attempts to meaningfully reduce corruption. Simply business as usual.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

The point I'm trying to make is that Zelensky is the head of a staggeringly corrupt country and he's now being feted as a hero. I strongly suspect he's not.

A less than perfect person can rise and lead a nation in need, look at Churchill. Still, your point is a poor one: whether a country is more corrupt than others and if its leader is less than you wish them to be, does not present a valid case for a sovereign country to be invaded by its neighbour.

You seem to argue that Russia is not 100% culpable here? You imply that they have a defence of being "provoked". Pure delusion ...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I hear you and understand your point. I (and many others ) do however think that Russia was provoked. That isn't Russian misinformation but obviously Putins keyboard warriors are out there pushing and embellishing that narrative as hard as possible. Just because they are doing that doesn't make the core fact false.

I've provided links from three different sources that indicate the NATO provocation excuse which you subscribe to was Russian misinformation. Which links back up your assertion?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I just don't think that Zelensky should be put on a pedestal just because his country has been invaded. He didn't turn into Snow White because of it. He is just as corrupt as the rest of them and now is being given billions with little accountability.

He is being praised because of his wartime leadership of Ukraine. No one is pretending he's faultless. He's not being given money personally as you infer; Ukraine the nation is being given weapons and economic assistance. Again, you are inadvertently following Putin's narrative.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You imply that they have a defence of being "provoked"

That's not what I'm implying at all.

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I've provided links from three different sources that indicate the NATO provocation excuse which you subscribe to was Russian misinformation. Which links back up your assertion?

I'm sorry but I'm not going to trawl the internet for you. Do your own homework.

He's not being given money personally as you infer

I'm not saying that he's personally being given money. The corrupt regime he's running is.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I'm sorry but I'm not going to trawl the internet for you. Do your own homework.


<SNIP>

Originally Posted by 1andrew1
I've provided links from three different sources that indicate the NATO provocation excuse which you subscribe to was Russian misinformation. Which links back up your assertion?

Sorry to be rude. But you really are descending into the pits. Andrew asked which pieces of Russian misinformation you subscribe to. So how can you expect Andrew to trawl the Internet, at the same time reading your mind to find links that only you can fathom?

Just answer his damn question or shut up. You’re ridiculous.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Sorry to be rude. But you really are descending into the pits. Andrew asked which pieces of Russian misinformation you subscribe to. So how can you expect Andrew to trawl the Internet, at the same time reading your mind to find links that only you can fathom?

Just answer his damn question or shut up. You’re ridiculous.

Kinda sums him up, his covid rants are legendary too.

Before anyone crosses the line here, I suggest you remind yourselves of CF rules on comments about other members.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Sorry to be rude. But you really are descending into the pits. Andrew asked which pieces of Russian misinformation you subscribe to. So how can you expect Andrew to trawl the Internet, at the same time reading your mind to find links that only you can fathom?

Just answer his damn question or shut up. You’re ridiculous.

And you are insultingly assuming that I'm subscribing to Russian misinformation.....thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by Mad Max

Kinda sums him up, his covid rants are legendary too.

I suggest that you look deeper into that rabbit hole than the BBCs reporting.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

Before anyone crosses the line here, I suggest you remind yourselves of CF rules on comments about other members.

Merry Christmas, everyone.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by jfman

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Merry Christmas, hope you all had a great day

[Ramrod]

Yep. merry Christmas everyone

[richard-john56]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Lest we forget about the true situation in Ukraine before the invasion: https://rumble.com/v20895u-zelensky-...president.html

You can only vote for Putin in Russia ... nice country not.