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Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
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Old 26-10-2016, 00:35   #16
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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Originally Posted by Kursk View Post
It would have been a thoughtful touch in support of gay marriage if the bakers had the two muppets engaged in buggery on top of the cake.

But seriously, this court decision is a precedent fraught with dangers.



You missed out Leviticus Chapter 18/22
If you believe then that may well apply to you but we should leave any judging to god . If you run a business unless what you are asked is unlawful then you should provide the service impartially.

Matthew 7:1-3
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Old 26-10-2016, 01:14   #17
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

You can quote the bible to make any point you want that's the whole problem with it!
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Old 26-10-2016, 02:19   #18
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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You can quote the bible to make any point you want that's the whole problem with it!
only if you don't take the context or that the old testament is not in the main ( murder theft etc excepted ) part of what Christians should obey the ransom paid absolved them of most of the laws that [part imposes. So though those of us who believe should live up to what We profess to believe.

We should not impose those values beliefs on others. Tell them about them yes at the right time and place . Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone. ( I don't think anyone can imply that quote could ever mean that someone would ever be perfect enough to throw that stone )
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Old 26-10-2016, 09:07   #19
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
You can quote the bible to make any point you want that's the whole problem with it!
Only if you think the Bible is a collection of sayings with no context.

The people who wrote it certainly didn't think that's what they were writing. Nor did the people who collected it together and affirmed it as the word of God.

The meetings at which the early Church leaders finally agreed what should be in the Bible and what shouldn't (and why) are well documented historical events. Whether or not you believe the message the Bible contains, you at least owe those leaders the courtesy of accepting that they made deliberate choices and believed those choices painted a clear and consistent picture of God's dealings with the human race, and the response God requires of us.
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Old 26-10-2016, 09:57   #20
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

Overall there is a difference between not serving because the customer is .... and because the customer makes a request you don't feel you can accommodate or you believe to be unreasonable/unlawful.
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Old 26-10-2016, 11:05   #21
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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Originally Posted by rogerdraig View Post
If you believe then that may well apply to you but we should leave any judging to god
I offered the additional reference as it seemed its exclusion was an accidental oversight.

Quote:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
It seems to me that the judgement has already been made by God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerdraig View Post
If you run a business unless what you are asked is unlawful then you should provide the service impartially.
It is unlawful according to the word of God.
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Old 26-10-2016, 12:09   #22
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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Originally Posted by rogerdraig View Post
only if you don't take the context or that the old testament is not in the main ( murder theft etc excepted ) part of what Christians should obey the ransom paid absolved them of most of the laws that [part imposes. So though those of us who believe should live up to what We profess to believe.

We should not impose those values beliefs on others. Tell them about them yes at the right time and place . Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone. ( I don't think anyone can imply that quote could ever mean that someone would ever be perfect enough to throw that stone )
Exactly my point, you quote bible verses and expect everyone to know the context yet you've taken the verse out of context.

There are other religions in the world! How would a Buddist, Hindu or anyone of another faith have any idea of the context of any verse plucked from the bible?

That is how evanglists work, they quote bible verses to prove any point they wish to make.
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Old 26-10-2016, 12:54   #23
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu View Post
Maggy, total agree with you.
To me it doesn't make sense, or was this the couple wanted to try and prove a point.

I heard recently a radio programme, where someone was complaining about something rather stupid. And a guy said. Why don't people get a life. If one person doesn't serve you, go somewhere else - simples
And if every shop won't serve you because you are black/ gay/ female/ disabled/ Jewish/ Muslim/ Catholic/ Atheist (delete as applicable), where do you go?
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Old 26-10-2016, 13:04   #24
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
And if every shop won't serve you because you are black/ gay/ female/ disabled/ Jewish/ Muslim/ Catholic/ Atheist (delete as applicable), where do you go?
As has been stated multiple times, the bakers in this case did not refuse service based on the sexual orientation of the customer, but because they did not wish to associate with a political campaign to change the law in Northern Ireland.

As the appeal court ruling stands, it appears that legislation intended to prevent discrimination now also has the effect of compelling public statements in favour of certain beliefs or practices. It makes absolutely no difference how good or right a certain cause is perceived to be, nobody, in public or private, in business or at leisure, should be forced to do such a thing, and if that's the effect this law has had, then the law needs to change.
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Old 26-10-2016, 13:26   #25
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

Doesn't that mean that a forum such as this is not allowed to be moderated?
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Old 26-10-2016, 13:26   #26
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

Doesn't what mean?
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Old 26-10-2016, 14:45   #27
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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As has been stated multiple times, the bakers in this case did not refuse service based on the sexual orientation of the customer, but because they did not wish to associate with a political campaign to change the law in Northern Ireland.

As the appeal court ruling stands, it appears that legislation intended to prevent discrimination now also has the effect of compelling public statements in favour of certain beliefs or practices. It makes absolutely no difference how good or right a certain cause is perceived to be, nobody, in public or private, in business or at leisure, should be forced to do such a thing, and if that's the effect this law has had, then the law needs to change.
I understand that, but I was replying to Arthur's point about not being served.

And I don't believe they were being forced to make a 'public statement' in favour of gay marriage - they were not being forced to display the cake, just make it...
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Old 26-10-2016, 15:02   #28
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

Sometimes verses can be quoted in isolation. Ex20:13 "You must not murder anyone" is a good case. The context allows such quoting.

Other times the context is important both in the surrounding text and in the original audience/culture. Generally any laws in the Old Testament not re-emphasised in the New are usually regarded as cultural and not applying to us today. e.g. rules on cutting beards, mixing fabric and so on.

---
And Chris has hit the nail on the head. The laws to protect have become a weapon to attack and victimise.
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Old 26-10-2016, 15:30   #29
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

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I understand that, but I was replying to Arthur's point about not being served.

And I don't believe they were being forced to make a 'public statement' in favour of gay marriage - they were not being forced to display the cake, just make it...
On the contrary, I believe everything a business does makes a statement of one kind or another. Witness last year's outrage over effective tax rates for a recent example, and the number of businesses that have changed their arrangements (without having been legally obliged to).

Businesses can and do hold political opinions - we have the recent referendum as proof of that.

Businesses can and do support charitable causes of one kind or another.

Many of them make investment and operational decisions based on ethical considerations (use of fair trade ingredients, or selected investment funds, for example).

They may choose to act in ways that they perceive are good for their reputation or the wider social good and they may choose to campaign on one side or another of a political issue if they believe one side or the other favours their aims.

A printing business would be entirely at liberty to refuse to deal with the Labour Party if it favoured a Tory government. Unfortunately the appeal court has agreed with the argument that not discriminating against someone on the grounds of their sexual orientation extends to not refusing to produce campaign material that argues against something that is currently illegal. If the law really does say that, then it is absurd, and I would dearly love to see the McArthurs take this to the Supreme Court where its compatibility with their human rights can be properly considered.
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Old 26-10-2016, 15:42   #30
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Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'

If I'd been the McArthur's I'd have left that cake out in the rain until all the sweet green icing was flowing down. I wouldn't admit to doing it though; I'd just say 'someone' did it and that I can't bake a replacement because I don't have the recipe anymore.

Drama averted .
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