The energy crisis

[jfman]

5G backup for me. I can’t believe I’m in the fifth richest economy in the world

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

5G backup for me. I can’t believe I’m in the fifth richest economy in the world

By what "measure"?

Other countries, including Germany and France, have been making "worst case" plans. Nothing unique to the UK or wealth of country.
We are exporting electricity to France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, so they must desperately need it at the moment.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

By what "measure"?

Other countries, including Germany and France, have been making "worst case" plans. Nothing unique to the UK or wealth of country.
We are exporting electricity to France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, so they must desperately need it at the moment.

I agree our economic decline probably means we aren’t the fifth richest economy int the world. Still, I shouldn’t be asked to tolerate 3 hours of blackouts. That’s supposed to be the type of event that distinguishes us from a failed state.

The fact other countries will likely be joining us is a red herring.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I agree our economic decline probably means we aren’t the fifth richest economy int the world. Still, I shouldn’t be asked to tolerate 3 hours of blackouts. That’s supposed to be the type of event that distinguishes us from a failed state.

The fact other countries will likely be joining us is a red herring.

You still haven't answered the question of "by what measure".
The FACT that other even richer(by whatever measure) countries are ALSO making plans for possible, IE not definite, scenarios it not a "red herring". Saying it's a "red herring" is actually the "red herring".

Originally Posted by jfman

The fact other countries will likely be joining us is a red herring.

Of course it isn’t a red herring - it’s a clear indication that exceptional circumstances apply, and the usual metrics might not be useful.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Of course it isn’t a red herring - it’s a clear indication that exceptional circumstances apply, and the usual metrics might not be useful.

If a number of economies all fell for the false belief the private sector alone could (and indeed would) satisfy all our needs that collective failure doesn’t detract for our own.

Given your penchant for British exceptionalism, I’d have expected you to have not accepted being the average of following the sheep as an excuse for our lack of energy security.

---------- Post added at 17:06 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

You still haven't answered the question of "by what measure".
The FACT that other even richer(by whatever measure) countries are ALSO making plans for possible, IE not definite, scenarios it not a "red herring". Saying it's a "red herring" is actually the "red herring".

My measure is I expect the role of the state is to ensure energy security rather than rely on “the markets”, Russia or the Middle East.

I expect when I flick the light switch it to go on. That’s my measure. I don’t live in South Africa where rationing is a part of life.

Originally Posted by jfman

If a number of economies all fell for the false belief the private sector alone could (and indeed would) satisfy all our needs that collective failure doesn’t detract for our own.

Given your penchant for British exceptionalism, I’d have expected you to have not accepted being the average of following the sheep as an excuse for our lack of energy security.

Oh please.

You proposed that energy supply problems were an indicator of a ‘failed state’. There are miles of clear blue water between ‘long-term policy failure’ and ‘failed state’.

I actually thought you were better at nuance than this.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Oh please.

You proposed that energy supply problems were an indicator of a ‘failed state’. There are miles of clear blue water between ‘long-term policy failure’ and ‘failed state’.

I actually thought you were better at nuance than this.

It’s absolutely the measure of a failed state. That’s why I’m surprised to see it (proposed) here.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by nomadking

By what "measure"?

Other countries, including Germany and France, have been making "worst case" plans. Nothing unique to the UK or wealth of country.
We are exporting electricity to France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, so they must desperately need it at the moment.

We’re exporting because we have very very limited storage compared to other nations. But as per usual you knew that already and chose to ignore

[Taf]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

We’re exporting because we have very very limited storage compared to other nations.

Apart from The Electric Mountain, what other ELECTRICITY storage does the UK have? Will all the electric vehicles have to plug into the grid to give up their power?

[mrmistoffelees]

[QUOTE=Taf;36136210][QUOTE=mrmistoffelees;36136202]We’re exporting because we have very very limited storage compared to other nations.

Apart from The Electric Mountain, what other ELECTRICITY storage does the UK have? Will all the electric vehicles have to plug into the grid to give up their power?

Bugger got that terribly wrong apologies all

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

<SNIP>

My measure is I expect the role of the state is to ensure energy security rather than rely on “the markets”, Russia or the Middle East.

I expect when I flick the light switch it to go on. That’s my measure. I don’t live in South Africa where rationing is a part of life.

Jfman is absolutely right. The public expect the government to do everything to assure supply of power and heat. Remember, it's government green policy that has put us at risk, not to mention the destruction of gas storage.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

If a number of economies all fell for the false belief the private sector alone could (and indeed would) satisfy all our needs that collective failure doesn’t detract for our own.

Given your penchant for British exceptionalism, I’d have expected you to have not accepted being the average of following the sheep as an excuse for our lack of energy security.

---------- Post added at 17:06 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------



My measure is I expect the role of the state is to ensure energy security rather than rely on “the markets”, Russia or the Middle East.

I expect when I flick the light switch it to go on. That’s my measure. I don’t live in South Africa where rationing is a part of life.

How has any of that got anything to do with how "rich" a country is?
Only 5% of our gas requirements have come from Russia. For the EU as a whole it's 40%. Germany by itself 55%. Germany doesn't have any LNG facilities for importing gas, the UK has 3.

Which situation would you rather be in? UK, EU, Germany?
There were shortages and price increase before Russia did anything.

The problem is that each country will try and outbid others for whatever gas there is.
South Africa relies on ageing coal-fired plants, which are having problems, just as France's Nuclear plants are/were having problems.
At this very moment, we are exporting 1GW to France, 1GW to Belgium, and 1GW to the Netherlands. If it wasn't for the UK, one or more of those countries would be facing blackouts.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by nomadking

How has any of that got anything to do with how "rich" a country is?
Only 5% of our gas requirements have come from Russia. For the EU as a whole it's 40%. Germany by itself 55%. Germany doesn't have any LNG facilities for importing gas, the UK has 3.

Which situation would you rather be in? UK, EU, Germany?
There were shortages and price increase before Russia did anything.

The problem is that each country will try and outbid others for whatever gas there is.
South Africa relies on ageing coal-fired plants, which are having problems, just as France's Nuclear plants are/were having problems.

At this very moment, we are exporting 1GW to France, 1GW to Belgium, and 1GW to the Netherlands. If it wasn't for the UK, one or more of those countries would be facing blackouts.

To set against that, the National Grid have warned that we must prepare for blackouts. If that scare is justified, we're as far up shit creek nix paddle as the other countries you've mentioned. Possibly worse because we have no gas storage facilities.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I expect when I flick the light switch it to go on. That’s my measure.

I’m with JFman on this. Failed state my be over egging it, but it is certainly a failure of government that we find ourselves in. I would argue that the circumstances are not that exceptional, not to country that would/should anticipate that geo political circumstances in countries that have a lot of energy can change rapidly. A country that outsources it’s energy needs is always on thin ice.

We as a nation have an abundance of energy reserves. We should look to releasing them in the coming decades.