The energy crisis

[Itshim]

So they don't pay tax on their extra profits , wow how do I join that scheme .

Originally Posted by ianch99

We have a system that has been evolved primarily for benefit of one party.

Right, because only members of one "party" have ever started up companies.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Imagine if a company had a legal obligation not to act detrimentally to employees and customers, as well as shareholders.

It would likely be a nightmare/disaster, and probably impossible to achieve, since you could almost never staisfy all three objectives. Also, how would you even define "detrimentally".

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Paul

Right, because only members of one "party" have ever started up companies.

Party as in the non-political definition

Originally Posted by Paul

It would likely be a nightmare/disaster, and probably impossible to achieve, since you could almost never staisfy all three objectives. Also, how would you even define "detrimentally".

This just requires imagination & political will to achieve.

For example, a disaster capitalist buys a company to asset strip, laying off employees and impacting communities. A change in the law would not allow this without a balanced plan that compensates the other impacted parties.

Also, a company that trades in the UK, employs people in the UK and generates revenue & profit in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

And companies that trade in the fake free market should be legally compelled to invest, preferentially, in the infrastructure they manage over distributing profit to shareholders.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

<SNIP>

Also, a company that trades in the UK, employs people in the UK and generates revenue & profit in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

And companies that trade in the fake free market should be legally compelled to invest, preferentially, in the infrastructure they manage over distributing profit to shareholders.

Also, a company that trades in the UK, employs people in the UK and generates revenue & profit in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

I doubt that anyone would disagree with you on this point. But, recalling our earlier conversation in this thread, the billions of windfall profit made by the UK based energy companies are taxed at the corporation tax rate. Nothing to see there.

And companies that trade in the fake free market should be legally compelled to invest, preferentially, in the infrastructure they manage over distributing profit to shareholders.

Good point. The water companies come to mind. The bad thing there is that they face no competition in each region

Originally Posted by ianch99

a company that trades in the UK, employs people in the UK and generates revenue & profit in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

No argument with that.

Originally Posted by ianch99

And companies that trade in the fake free market should be legally compelled to invest, preferentially, in the infrastructure they manage over distributing profit to shareholders.

That would be "detremental" to shareholders.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Paul

That would be "detremental" to shareholders.

Which is why the law need to change

---------- Post added at 16:09 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I doubt that anyone would disagree with you on this point. But, recalling our earlier conversation in this thread, the billions of windfall profit made by the UK based energy companies are taxed at the corporation tax rate. Nothing to see there

So, again, we change the law to balance the equation.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Good point. The water companies come to mind. The bad thing there is that they face no competition in each region

The clue is in the term "fake free market"

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Party as in the non-political definition



This just requires imagination & political will to achieve.

For example, a disaster capitalist buys a company to asset strip, laying off employees and impacting communities. A change in the law would not allow this without a balanced plan that compensates the other impacted parties.

Also, a company that trades in the UK, employs people in the UK and generates revenue & profit in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

And companies that trade in the fake free market should be legally compelled to invest, preferentially, in the infrastructure they manage over distributing profit to shareholders.

So Mercedes vehicles produced outside the UK should pay UK company tax on vehicles that are sold in the UK. Doesn't work like that anywhere in the world. To begin with, how do they offset the costs of production in those countries? How would Apple offset the cost of producing an iPhone outside the UK, but sold in the UK? How would they offset the R&D costs.

Why should companies be forced to invest in "white elephants" just for the sake of it? The money paid out to shareholders gets invested, one way or another by those shareholders. They also get taxed on that income. They don't just stick it under the mattress, as seems the all too common belief.

The one thing that Chancellor should do is reduce VAT at the pumps, he’s absolutely raking it in at the moment. Petrol and diesel should be 15p less than they are now as well, according to where barrel of oil prices are at, at the moment.

[1andrew1]

UK minister refuses to rule out windfall tax on energy groups

“We continue to look at this situation very, very closely,” Simon Clarke, chief secretary to the Treasury, told Sky News on Monday. “On the concept of a windfall tax itself, we are very clear that there is a real need, at a time when the industry is making very significant profits, to see those profits reinvested.

“If we do not see that investment materialise, then we are very clear that all options are on the table,” he added.

Elsewhere, Italy’s government has increased the tax on energy companies’ windfall profits to 25 per cent, up from the 10 per cent envisaged when the levy was first outlined in March.

https://www.ft.com/content/ab665086-...2-2f9d24d1e337

[tweetiepooh]

The big energy companies making huge profits now is OK if (and it's a big IF) they then use that profit to cushion future increases. Maybe the government should hold off on taxing if they get such promises.

[heero_yuy]

Those profits are used to pay dividends to investors many of which are the large pension funds.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Those profits are used to pay dividends to investors many of which are the large pension funds.

Be careful what you wish for.

Exactamundo.

The amount of group-think that goes on, usually for prejudicial reasons, coupled with the way Boris' mind works (self preservation) is a dangerous combination.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

The big energy companies making huge profits now is OK if (and it's a big IF) they then use that profit to cushion future increases. Maybe the government should hold off on taxing if they get such promises.

Maybe they should hold off until the day Sue Grey releases her report...

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

The big energy companies making huge profits now is OK if (and it's a big IF) they then use that profit to cushion future increases. Maybe the government should hold off on taxing if they get such promises.

That is not how the current free market works. As Chris said, they are obligated to make profits for their shareholders. Competitive pricing that drives the real free market may help here but they requires a, err ... free market

---------- Post added at 12:53 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Those profits are used to pay dividends to investors many of which are the large pension funds.

Be careful what you wish for.

This report tends to disagree with you

Do dividends pay our pensions?

Our analysis shows that only a tiny proportion of UK dividends and buybacks accrue to UK pension funds.

This report also makes the point I made earlier:

When making decisions, businesses should be legally obliged to give as much weight to the interests of their staff and other stakeholders (eg local communities) as they give to the interests of their owners or shareholders.

Given the benefits to the workforce, other stakeholders, the company itself and wider society, it is time the law caught up with the public.

Also from: https://www.standard.co.uk/business/...s-b981319.html

Data from the pension industry suggests defined benefit schemes own about 1.6% of BP – so gets just 1.6% of its dividends.

It’s hard to tell how much other pension funds have of BP since they are so diverse, but we do know that all pension schemes have been investing less in UK equities in the last 15 years. Pension funds still get a big chunk of BP divis, but it is probably less than it was.

[1andrew1]

No surprise; another U-turn is on its way!

Sunak orders plan for windfall tax on electricity generators

Treasury scheme would come in addition to levies on North Sea oil and gas producers

Chancellor Rishi Sunak has ordered officials to draw up plans for a possible windfall tax on more than £10bn of excess profits by electricity generators, including wind farm operators, on top of a hit on North Sea oil and gas producers.

Treasury officials are working on a scheme that would go well beyond Labour’s original windfall tax plan, as Sunak looks to raise billions of pounds of financial support for households struggling with soaring energy bills.

“North Sea oil and gas producers are only half the picture,” said one government insider. “The other half is that high gas prices have led to some pretty substantial windfall profits for all electricity generation.”

By pulling big power generators such as SSE, ScottishPower, EDF Energy and RWE into the scope of any windfall tax Sunak would sharply increase the revenue it brings in.

Sunak and Boris Johnson urgently want to set out measures to address rising energy bills and how to pay for them, officials say. An announcement could come this week or after the Jubilee bank holiday in early June.

https://www.ft.com/content/ddbde592-...2-d6566790403f