General : WWE (no spoilers for 24 hours)

[Russ]

More awful botches from Sin Cara in his match with Heath Slater on this week's Smackdown - so bad they had to re-do the ending.

How he still has a contract is anyone's guess.

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

More awful botches from Sin Cara in his match with Heath Slater on this week's Smackdown - so bad they had to re-do the ending.

How he still has a contract is anyone's guess.

Yeah, "Sin Cara" botched alright.

Problem here being that "Sin Cara" for the last 3 weeks has actually been Hunico, a luchador from FCW that they've used to replace him since he was under suspension for his welfare violation.
The real Sin Cara was sent home from the Smackdown taping because they decided to use Hunico still, and HE botched so badly they had to retape, and heavily edit it for TV. So much so the whole match lasted around 2 minutes of airtime.

Thank you for proving that you don't have a clue and don't even watch it enough to notice "Sin Cara" was over 30lbs heavier and 3 inches taller than usual. Not to mention that just watching the matches from the past 3 smackdowns it's been obvious it wasn't Sin Cara as there were no La Mysticas, no real high flying moves other than standard splashes, his in ring movement was completely different as well. It's been painfully obvious to anyone that actually watches from more than the corner of their eye that it wasn't Sin Cara.

Keep on with your Sin Cara hate though, it's one thing attributing Chavo and Primo's botches to him, another to attribute Hunico's to him when he wasn't even in the building at the time, but hey when you have an agenda

[Russ]

I'm guessing you were not aware they've taken the Sin Cara off the original guy and given it to Hunico for the foreseeable future as he's more reliable, and that the original guy has been sent home from a number of SD shows?

I don't hate him, just using my actual knowledge and experience from the business to realise he's considered a liability and most likely not going to remain a WWE employee for long.

Source: Pwinsider.com

WWE sources indicate that Luis Ignascio Urive Alvirde, the original Sin Cara, was sent home from Tuesday’s SmackDown taping in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. He left the Scotiabank Saddledome before the event’s conclusion.

Company sources state that developmental talent Jorge Arias (a/k/a Hunico) will exclusively portray the Sin Cara character going forward. WWE wants to maintain the character since its been very popular among kids and in merchandise sales.

Many employees expect Alvirde to part ways with the organization, but it is not 100% confirmed.

Hmm, I wonder why hey?

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

I'm guessing you were not aware they've taken the Sin Cara off the original guy and given it to Hunico for the foreseeable future as he's more reliable, and that the original guy has been sent home from a number of SD shows?

I don't hate him, just using my actual knowledge and experience from the business to realise he's considered a liability and most likely not going to remain a WWE employee for long.

I'm not aware yet I just said that exact thing? Yes, that makes sense, no I don't know that "Sin Cara" is being played by Hunico, please ignore the entire post I just made that states he is. I didn't really make it, it just appeared here without my knowledge because obviously I didn't know, thanks for telling me!

No, the original guy was sent home from ONE show (that being this weeks)
He was suspended for 90 days before that.

You comments are completely contradictory. You're saying you knew it was Hunico, yet you said "more awful botches from Sin Cara... How he still has a contract is anyone's guess", how exactly does this tally? Your obvious implication there is that you thought it was the real Sin Cara, and wanted to add this match to the long list of previous botches (how else would it be more awful botches?) Unless you're somehow suggesting a keyfabe character should keyfabe lose a contract, but we both know you didn't mean that.

There haven't been any "more awful botches from Sin Cara" because Sin Cara hasn't fought a match since MITB.

Hunico, so more reliable that they had to reshoot the ending, and then retape the entire match. Yeah, good one.

---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ

Hmm, I wonder why hey?

That's a decision they're probably look to reconsider considering how badly Hunico messed up this weeks show.

But hey, it's easy being a Luchador in WWE right?

[Russ]

Hunico has botched one match, the original SC botched each match. On the law of probabilities I'd say Hunico has a better chance and has probably a less-botch-prone move set.

As I've pointed out to you many times in the past, as long as a Luchador (or anyone with a particular style) is happy to adapt their individual style to that of the WWE there is no reason they can't succeed. For whatever reason the original SC cannot or will not adapt and has been responsible for more in-ring botches than any other WWE performer in recent memory.

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

Hunico has botched one match, the original SC botched each match. On the law of probabilities I'd say Hunico has a better chance and has probably a less-botch-prone move set.

So once again, how is this "more awful botches from Sin Cara"?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDon

So once again, how is this "more awful botches from Sin Cara"?

I watched the show through my phone, I couldn't see it was not the original guy. So I'm sure you'll be very happy if I state the mistakes were from the new guy.

But that doesn't change the fact the original one botched the majority if not all his WWE matches due to his inability or unwillingness to adapt his style and as a result from his constant botches, they're keeping him off tv for the foreseeable future.

[adzii_nufc]

Some of the top superstars botch moves in every single match... Why is Sin Cara botching any different?

Rey Mysterio must have have botched about 60,000 moves over the years.

It's like you have never seen someone mess up in the ring before. Its never going to be 100% perfect but who cares.

Infact I remember a wrestler in his starting days who botched just as much as Sin Cara and his name was CM Punk.. Many of times slipping off the ropes and face planting the mat. I dont recall anyone complaining about Jeff Hardy much either even though he was a consistent botcher.. See the problem is when your looking for botches you will find EVERY WWE Superstar Botch moves on a regular basis.

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

I watched the show through my phone, I couldn't see it was not the original guy. So I'm sure you'll be very happy if I state the mistakes were from the new guy.

But that doesn't change the fact the original one botched the majority if not all his WWE matches due to his inability or unwillingness to adapt his style and as a result from his constant botches, they're keeping him off tv for the foreseeable future.

Thank you. You could have said that the first time instead!

He didn't botch the majority or even all, when he was up against decent workers he put on decent matches (His match with Christian was pretty damn good). When he was up against people that can barely wrestle WWE style (Primo being a prime example) then there were definitely issues, and NOT all to do with Sin Cara (I can't see how he can take the blame for Primo slipping off a rope because he can't keep balance).

I've not seen any unwillingness to adapt, but I've seen is plenty of reports of Vince wanting him to do things most low card workers in WWE are incapable of selling. They signed him for the risk risk high flying moves, when he's gone for lesser risk ones mid match he's been called up on it.

He should never have skipped FCW (his opponents needed that as much as him) But because they threw him straight in at the deep end in a mask he can't really see out of, in a country he doesn't speak the language, and in a style he's never wrestled before, because he cost them a fortune to get out of contract. There were bound to be problems based on that.

You know the mood lighting in his matches are because the eye holes in the Sin Cara mask are so ridiculously small that you just can't see anything without the lighting setup like that?

The Sin Cara failure has been far more down to WWE rushing it through with some extremely bad decision making than any failure on his part, as this weeks smackdown has proved. That Hunico botched a match enough the entire thing was retaped when he doesn't do moves even half as difficult as Sin Cara does it shows that the problem is more than just one guy.

I wouldn't judge his ability on the fact they're keeping him off TV (in reality he's been kept off TV for 1 show) WWE has a strange habit of keeping plenty of decent workers off TV, hell they even release decent workers like Chris Masters (they ditch him after he improved 10 fold in the ring to the point where he was better than most mid carders) just because they can, whilst keeping people that can't wrestle like the great khali. Most of it is political really. Sin Cara damaged his chances of getting back in the mask more by talking to the press about his suspension than by any number of botches, if the WWE kept people off TV for botches Alex Riley would never be seen again.

---------- Post added at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

Some of the top superstars botch moves in every single match... Why is Sin Cara botching any different?

Rey Mysterio must have have botched about 60,000 moves over the years.

It's like you have never seen someone mess up in the ring before. Its never going to be 100% perfect but who cares.

Exactly.

Most of Sin Cara's aren't even his botches either, they're the other guys. I've linked to them before, but most of the time it's the other guy not selling the move properly.

It's like people blaming Swagger for Alex Riley sandbagging his gutwrench powerbomb the other week on raw. Just because the move messes up it doesn't mean it's the attacker who botched, a lot of the moves are more dependent on the defender than the attacker to be able to be pulled off right.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDon

Thank you. You could have said that the first time instead!

He didn't botch the majority or even all, when he was up against decent workers he put on decent matches (His match with Christian was pretty damn good). When he was up against people that can barely wrestle WWE style (Primo being a prime example) then there were definitely issues, and NOT all to do with Sin Cara (I can't see how he can take the blame for Primo slipping off a rope because he can't keep balance).

He did botch the majority, and many on house shows - people don't get taken off a brand to avoid live TV for nothing. As I've explained in the past there are things workers discuss before a match. Primo isn't the best worker but isn't the worst. In fairness Christian could get a good match out of Kelly Kelly.

Originally Posted by TheDon

I've not seen any unwillingness to adapt, but I've seen is plenty of reports of Vince wanting him to do things most low card workers in WWE are incapable of selling. They signed him for the risk risk high flying moves, when he's gone for lesser risk ones mid match he's been called up on it.

There is plenty of evidence of unwillingness. His constant botches for instance. If a workers is brought in because of their different skill-set they are still required to adapt to WWE's way. Take William Regal. His technical stuff is very 'European' but still wrestles the American way.

Originally Posted by TheDon

He should never have skipped FCW (his opponents needed that as much as him) But because they threw him straight in at the deep end in a mask he can't really see out of, in a country he doesn't speak the language, and in a style he's never wrestled before, because he cost them a fortune to get out of contract. There were bound to be problems based on that.

They would not put him in situations he could not handle - why on earth would they do that for someone they intend to be part of WWE's next generation?

Originally Posted by TheDon

You know the mood lighting in his matches are because the eye holes in the Sin Cara mask are so ridiculously small that you just can't see anything without the lighting setup like that?

I'm not sure that's true. If they asked him to wear something you seem to be suggesting is dangerous they'd be opening themselves up to legal action if he took a career-threatening bump.

Originally Posted by TheDon

The Sin Cara failure has been far more down to WWE rushing it through with some extremely bad decision making than any failure on his part, as this weeks smackdown has proved. That Hunico botched a match enough the entire thing was retaped when he doesn't do moves even half as difficult as Sin Cara does it shows that the problem is more than just one guy.

There isn't anything wrong with the way WWE have handled the character. Basically they're introducing him as Rey with the volume turned up. Hunico botched one match, there aren't any wrestlers who can say that's never happened to. If he keeps botching then that might be different.

Originally Posted by TheDon

I wouldn't judge his ability on the fact they're keeping him off TV (in reality he's been kept off TV for 1 show) WWE has a strange habit of keeping plenty of decent workers off TV, hell they even release decent workers like Chris Masters (they ditch him after he improved 10 fold in the ring to the point where he was better than most mid carders) just because they can, whilst keeping people that can't wrestle like the great khali. Most of it is political really. Sin Cara damaged his chances of getting back in the mask more by talking to the press about his suspension than by any number of botches, if the WWE kept people off TV for botches Alex Riley would never be seen again.

Not only are they keeping him off tv but the rumours are he will soon be released. Masters was a travesty but he'll be back.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Exactly.

Most of Sin Cara's aren't even his botches either, they're the other guys. I've linked to them before, but most of the time it's the other guy not selling the move properly.

(Sigh)

Before a match, the workers and the agent (and sometimes the ref) will get together so they do over everything. Cara should at that point make his move-set clear. A number of guys not selling properly against the same guy and you still think it's them? Rose tinted glasses...?

Originally Posted by TheDon

It's like people blaming Swagger for Alex Riley sandbagging his gutwrench powerbomb the other week on raw. Just because the move messes up it doesn't mean it's the attacker who botched, a lot of the moves are more dependent on the defender than the attacker to be able to be pulled off right.

If Riley had a history of botches in such a short space of time then yes, you may have a point.

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

He did botch the majority, and many on house shows - people don't get taken off a brand to avoid live TV for nothing. As I've explained in the past there are things workers discuss before a match. Primo isn't the best worker but isn't the worst. In fairness Christian could get a good match out of Kelly Kelly.

Primo slipped off the rope. No amount of talking things through would have improved the ability of Primo to stand on the top rope.

Originally Posted by Russ

They would not put him in situations he could not handle - why on earth would they do that for someone they intend to be part of WWE's next generation?

Money money money. This is WWE, they do everything for the money. The entire reason Hunico is in the Sin Cara mask is so they can carry on selling them at $70 a pop.
They wanted a quick return on the huge investment they made on him.

Originally Posted by Russ

I'm not sure that's true. If they asked him to wear something you seem to be suggesting is dangerous they'd be opening themselves up to legal action if he took a career-threatening bump.

MITB ladder matches show the sort of level of danger WWE thinks is allowable. Many a wrestler (most recently CM Punk) have come out and said they'd be happy if they never had to wrestle another one because of how dangerous they are. So yes, I think WWE would do something that wasn't entirely safe.

Originally Posted by Russ

There isn't anything wrong with the way WWE have handled the character. Basically they're introducing him as Rey with the volume turned up. Hunico botched one match, there aren't any wrestlers who can say that's never happened to. If he keeps botching then that might be different.

So you think introducing a guy straight into the main event roster that hardly anyone on the roster has experience in dealing with is the right thing to do?
He isn't just another Rey, his moves are a whole level above what Rey does. His moves are several levels about what Hunico does.

There should have been a period of training for the benefit of both him and his opponents.

Originally Posted by Russ

Not only are they keeping him off tv but the rumours are he will soon be released. Masters was a travesty but he'll be back.

There's rumours of plenty of stuff. It doesn't all turn out right.
Sin Cara has been rumoured to be released near enough since he started. I'll believe it when it happens. As of right now everything just seems like WWE taking a guy that came in with a huge attitude from being the best where he was and going "here you're nothing, we can replace you at any time" to get his personality back in check.

Originally Posted by Russ

(Sigh)

Before a match, the workers and the agent (and sometimes the ref) will get together so they do over everything. Cara should at that point make his move-set clear. A number of guys not selling properly against the same guy and you still think it's them? Rose tinted glasses...?

I know exactly how it works.
How do you know that that didn't happen, that the moves weren't worked over, and then in the ring the other guy didn't still mess them up?

Lets look at it logically, you've got one guy who's worked the same style his entire career used to the moves, and another guy, who's been talked through them before the match with no real experience of them. When the move fails who's more likely to be the one making the mistake?

If you're going to blame Sin Cara for not doing enough to train the guys up then you surely you should be agreeing that he shouldn't have been instantly thrown into the roster. It's amazing that the people who the botches have been against are people that struggle with WWE style wrestling as well. It's not like he's gone against a decent worker and botched as well.

I don't even like Sin Cara's style, I've never been a fan of luchador's like that, their offense just looks extremely low impact to me, there's no real momentum or force behind it, so my glasses are definitely not rose tinted, I just don't like to see people taking unnecessary stick based on things other people have messed up on.

Sin Cara has proven over his career that he can do these moves without botching, WWE signed him to do these moves. That the moves are getting botched are down to the other person not having any experience in doing them, and that isn't something Sin Cara can solve by discussing spots before a match.

Originally Posted by Russ

If Riley had a history of botches in such a short space of time then yes, you may have a point.

He does. Watch his matches. His entire push is based on the pop from him turning on Miz. He was stuck in FCW for years because he never improved. He still hasn't improved. The guy is a danger in the ring. He's green as hell. If it wasn't for the huge pop he got on his face turn he'd be no where near TV.
He's just another example of WWE doing dangerous stuff if it's good for ratings.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDon

Primo slipped off the rope. No amount of talking things through would have improved the ability of Primo to stand on the top rope.

That's just one situation out of many Cara-inspired botches.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Money money money. This is WWE, they do everything for the money. The entire reason Hunico is in the Sin Cara mask is so they can carry on selling them at $70 a pop.
They wanted a quick return on the huge investment they made on him.

And they would not keep him doing something he could not do - which is why they're keeping the character but probably not the man.

Originally Posted by TheDon

MITB ladder matches show the sort of level of danger WWE thinks is allowable. Many a wrestler (most recently CM Punk) have come out and said they'd be happy if they never had to wrestle another one because of how dangerous they are. So yes, I think WWE would do something that wasn't entirely safe.

I think you're showing your naivety in comparing a once/twice-a-year match to something that happens 3 or 4 times a week.

Originally Posted by TheDon

So you think introducing a guy straight into the main event roster that hardly anyone on the roster has experience in dealing with is the right thing to do?
He isn't just another Rey, his moves are a whole level above what Rey does. His moves are several levels about what Hunico does.

Which is why I called him Rey with the volume turned up. Much of what Rey did 10 years ago is similar to what Cara does now. As long as the matches are properly planned then there is little or no scope for these constant botches.

Originally Posted by TheDon

There's rumours of plenty of stuff. It doesn't all turn out right.
Sin Cara has been rumoured to be released near enough since he started. I'll believe it when it happens. As of right now everything just seems like WWE taking a guy that came in with a huge attitude from being the best where he was and going "here you're nothing, we can replace you at any time" to get his personality back in check.

Nothing wrong with that. When Christian came back from TNA he went from being one of their top guys to a WWE jobber. Vince may have been making a statement towards Dixie Carter with that but it shows he has no problem in showing people that no one guy is bigger than WWE.

Originally Posted by TheDon

I know exactly how it works.
How do you know that that didn't happen, that the moves weren't worked over, and then in the ring the other guy didn't still mess them up?

Unless you're actively involved in the business, I very much doubt you'd know exactly how it works.

This reminds me of a female friend I have who keeps blaming men for her getting dumped by each man she goes out with. It's always their fault apparently, not hers.

The use of agents in each match cannot be overstated - I believe the original Cara had Pat Patterson - and when a legend such as PP can't get SC to iron out his botches, there's something very wrong.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Lets look at it logically, you've got one guy who's worked the same style his entire career used to the moves, and another guy, who's been talked through them before the match with no real experience of them. When the move fails who's more likely to be the one making the mistake?

Let's use different logic. One man comes in with a particular style which he will have been told (and would have agreed to) has to be modified to fit in with everyone else. In a set period (let's say 6 months) he has shown no adaptations to his style and the mistakes continue whether against low card workers or more talented guys. It gets to the point they like his image but have to replace the man. Who is more likely to be at fault?

Originally Posted by TheDon

If you're going to blame Sin Cara for not doing enough to train the guys up then you surely you should be agreeing that he shouldn't have been instantly thrown into the roster. It's amazing that the people who the botches have been against are people that struggle with WWE style wrestling as well. It's not like he's gone against a decent worker and botched as well.

It isn't Cara's responsibily to "train the guys up". My issue is with him constantly making mistakes which threaten to expose the business and not showing any signs of improvement. The WWE HQ has an open door policy, if Cara needed more training or help he could seek it. Either he hasn't or has sought it but it has been ineffective for whatever reason. I've worked with 4 former WWE wrestlers and 3 FCW trainees and they've all made it clear help is always available. If Cara was thrown in the deep end too soon that's one thing but at the very least I'd expect improvement by now.

I'm not saying he isn't a technically decent performer. But his botches are far too common.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Sin Cara has proven over his career that he can do these moves without botching, WWE signed him to do these moves. That the moves are getting botched are down to the other person not having any experience in doing them, and that isn't something Sin Cara can solve by discussing spots before a match.

Upon getting signed by WWE the first thing a wrestler is told "everything you have learned is wrong". Vince (rightly or wrongly) wants his guys working a certain way. He won't expect a complete overhaul, just a change to the WWE way. He expects certain workers to retain their form (again using him as an example, whilst using the WWE style you can tell William Regal is a European-based worker) but technically it should the McMahon way.

For example, watch WWE guy executing a suplex. He'll always grab the sleeper by the shorts/trunks on his hips. That makes little sense as it makes it harder to control the sleeper's body. The European (and in fact in the much of the rest of the world) way is to hold them on the thigh or knee, it makes it much easier to control the move. But no, Vince won't have that.

Originally Posted by TheDon

He does. Watch his matches. His entire push is based on the pop from him turning on Miz. He was stuck in FCW for years because he never improved. He still hasn't improved. The guy is a danger in the ring. He's green as hell. If it wasn't for the huge pop he got on his face turn he'd be no where near TV.
He's just another example of WWE doing dangerous stuff if it's good for ratings.

His push is indeed based on his turning on Miz (something which has been used over and over for years) and yes he's green but as for the rest of what you're saying, we must be watching different Alex Reillys.

You're not a UKFF user by any chance?

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

That's just one situation out of many Cara-inspired botches.

And I've posted many more in this thread that weren't his fault as well.
The Chavo match that was absolutely dreadful for a start, was Chavo messing up multiple times.

You can't tell me that when the other guy messes up the catch it's Sin Cara's fault.

Originally Posted by Russ

And they would not keep him doing something he could not do - which is why they're keeping the character but probably not the man.

They're keeping the character regardless as it's a money spinner. I still think we'll see Sin Cara v1 back, because Hunico just doesn't have the same level of talent or ring presence. If they do stick with Hunico it'll only take a couple more matches of just splashes before the crowd tires of it, it's really not like watching the same character at all.

Originally Posted by Russ

I think you're showing your naivety in comparing a once/twice-a-year match to something that happens 3 or 4 times a week.

Not really, I'm just showing that WWE aren't exactly famed for their no risk policies. There's plenty that goes on that is equally as dangerous. Sin Cara not being able to see clearly isn't anywhere near as dangerous as a MITB match as none of his moves are genuine injury risks if they fail, it just makes them harder to land. It'll only ever lead to botches not injuries as none of his stuff is ever really forceful.

Originally Posted by Russ

Which is why I called him Rey with the volume turned up. Much of what Rey did 10 years ago is similar to what Cara does now. As long as the matches are properly planned then there is little or no scope for these constant botches.

I wouldn't say Rey has ever been that similar to Sin Cara's style, but let us not forget Rey hasn't ever been botch free either.
I agree that proper planning would avoid the botches, but that planning isn't just on the part of Sin Cara. When a lot of them come from people mistiming catches or just plain doing them wrong, you can't put the whole blame on the guy who does his part right.

Originally Posted by Russ

Nothing wrong with that. When Christian came back from TNA he went from being one of their top guys to a WWE jobber. Vince may have been making a statement towards Dixie Carter with that but it shows he has no problem in showing people that no one guy is bigger than WWE.

Never said there was anything wrong with it. In fact I support it as sometimes people do need reigning in else they just start thinking they're bigger than they are. I'm just saying it's an alternative explanation for the way he's been treated recently rather than "the guys being released". They put a lot of money into him, and it can't really be recovered by shoving Hunico in the mask.

Originally Posted by Russ

Unless you're actively involved in the business, I very much doubt you'd know exactly how it works.

This reminds me of a female friend I have who keeps blaming men for her getting dumped by each man she goes out with. It's always their fault apparently, not hers.

The use of agents in each match cannot be overstated - I believe the original Cara had Pat Patterson - and when a legend such as PP can't get SC to iron out his botches, there's something very wrong.

Not involved in the business, but have friends who wrestle the UK circuit, I've seen how they all plan for matches, how they discuss spots so know what goes into your average wrestling match. It's not on the scale of WWE obviously, but from the grass roots all the way to the top the process doesn't change that much.
Especially as in the WWE there generally isn't that much time to prep for matches in the mid and low cards, they get decided fairly late, and it's not unusual for a decision on who's going to win still being up in the air when they enter the ring and it being decided which way to go mid match.

There's plenty of ex-wrestler stories as well that go into how little prep work they get in the WWE due to how last minute a lot of the booking is.

Originally Posted by Russ

Let's use different logic. One man comes in with a particular style which he will have been told (and would have agreed to) has to be modified to fit in with everyone else. In a set period (let's say 6 months) he has shown no adaptations to his style and the mistakes continue whether against low card workers or more talented guys. It gets to the point they like his image but have to replace the man. Who is more likely to be at fault?

But he wasn't told that. He was bought in to wrestle his high flying style. He was sold to the fans as a high flyer, his entrance is even him jumping into the ring to reinforce the fact the guy is a pure high flyer.
Then he's put up against guys who've never wrestled against a high flyer, and THEY mess up the catches on him.

Originally Posted by Russ

It isn't Cara's responsibily to "train the guys up". My issue is with him constantly making mistakes which threaten to expose the business and not showing any signs of improvement. The WWE HQ has an open door policy, if Cara needed more training or help he could seek it. Either he hasn't or has sought it but it has been ineffective for whatever reason. I've worked with 4 former WWE wrestlers and 3 FCW trainees and they've all made it clear help is always available. If Cara was thrown in the deep end too soon that's one thing but at the very least I'd expect improvement by now.

I'm not saying he isn't a technically decent performer. But his botches are far too common.

Please point me to videos of HIS botches. I've linked to videos in this thread of botches that are attributed to him that weren't his fault, so I feel that you should be able to link to these many many botches that are his fault.
The fact is HE isn't constantly making mistakes, there have been a couple of times he has (I can remember one off the top of my head which result in someone calling an audible "repeat the spot"), but no more than anyone else. There's just this huge focus on him being a botch machine because he was a high profile signing, and his first match had a botched entrance and a pretty obvious botch (neither of which were his fault) so people instantly decided he was a botch machine.

The match with Chavo did little to change that, because it was dire, but again, not just because of Sin Cara.

Originally Posted by Russ

Upon getting signed by WWE the first thing a wrestler is told "everything you have learned is wrong". Vince (rightly or wrongly) wants his guys working a certain way. He won't expect a complete overhaul, just a change to the WWE way. He expects certain workers to retain their form (again using him as an example, whilst using the WWE style you can tell William Regal is a European-based worker) but technically it should the McMahon way.

For example, watch WWE guy executing a suplex. He'll always grab the sleeper by the shorts/trunks on his hips. That makes little sense as it makes it harder to control the sleeper's body. The European (and in fact in the much of the rest of the world) way is to hold them on the thigh or knee, it makes it much easier to control the move. But no, Vince won't have that.

Yeah but none of his botches have really been about doing moves usually done in WWE in a different way.
They've all really been down to either bad catches or bad positioning.

I'd completely understand if Sin Cara was somehow trying to swim against the tide, but I've not really seen any evidence of that.

Originally Posted by Russ

His push is indeed based on his turning on Miz (something which has been used over and over for years) and yes he's green but as for the rest of what you're saying, we must be watching different Alex Reillys.

You're not a UKFF user by any chance?

He can't stand on the ring apron which actually messed up a major storyline of the match.
He can't even throw a guy through the ropes

I'd point out more, but I'd just be linking to pretty much the entire of his last 3 matches.

Saddens me that guys like Alex Riley get pushed whilst Zack Ryder is stuck on superstars.

Nah I occassionally read UKFF, but never posted there. I'd get into too many debates like this one

[Russ]

We're not going to agree on this

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

We're not going to agree on this

Be a pretty boring thread if we did though!

On the latest wrestling observer Dave Meltzer says pretty much what I expected, most of the issues with Sin Cara are him acting like a superstar when he hasn't done anything in WWE. Apparently when he started he didn't go round shaking everyones hand like a good little worker either, which is a faux pas in the WWE world.