Owen Paterson: Anger as Tory MP avoids suspension in rule shake-up

Originally Posted by jfman

Newer Tory MPs furious at No 10 order to back Owen Paterson

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-owen-paterson

At least we can put to bed the notion that this didn’t come from the top.

How thoroughly depressing.

The next couple of years are going to be interesting now. The Torygraph rarely holds back when it has a chance to put the boot into Boris and this week the Wail has been at it too. In part this can be seen as them feeling safe enough to be roundly critical as Labour still has a mountain to climb before it looks like a credible opposition, let alone an alternative government. But once a pattern has set in, who knows? The rearing of that word “sleaze” ought to be ringing alarm bells all around Tory high command because it is in no small measure responsible for the party’s demise in 1997 despite the economy being in pretty good shape. They looked warm out and corrupt; Blair looked fresh, trustworthy and competent.

I am not a big fan of leftist politics and I would very much like to see the Conservatives get their house in order. I wonder whether many inside the parliamentary party will begin to think that means removing Boris before there’s another election.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The only people who made it party political was the Government who tried to make retrospective legislation to let one of their own off.

You surely don't need me to tell how you how dangerous such a precedent that would have set?

My argument is not that he be ‘let off’. All I am saying, if anyone is actually listening, is that a right of appeal should be in place.

All this does is review the decision in the light of all the evidence. If the committee got it wrong, this would be an opportunity to put it right.

If the committee was correct in its judgement, the decision would stand.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

My argument is not that he be ‘let off’. All I am saying, if anyone is actually listening, is that a right of appeal should be in place.

All this does is review the decision in the light off all the evidence. If the committee got it wrong, this would be an opportunity to put it right.

If the committee was correct in its judgement, the decision would stand.

So who should stand above an independent standards committee appointed by Parliament?

Judges?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

So who should stand above an independent standards committee appointed by Parliament?

Judges?

It could be a different set of MPs selected to hear appeals. This is not rocket science, jfman. It’s called fair play.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It could be a different set of MPs selected to hear appeals. This is not rocket science, jfman. It’s called fair play.

It’s called corruption.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are totally correct. This government got into power playing the Brexit card and they think that because of this, they are entitled to do anything they wish. Rule following, honesty, integrity are entirely optional.

Dishonesty comes from the top:

If you cannot see this then either you are not paying attention or you agree with the direction they are taking this country.

The ones I feel sorry for are the honest, old-school Conservative voters. Imagine holding your nose and voting for this shower. Conflicted is an understatement!

I think you're right. Johnson's high-spending, high-tax policies and populist approach is also a lifetime away from many Conservative voters. The reputational damage from all Johnson's U-turns must be causing the local associations to feel somewhat bewildered.

Is Sunak sharpening his knife?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s called corruption.

What, introducing an appeals process? Don’t talk daft.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 13:58 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I think you're right. Johnson's high-spending, high-tax policies and populist approach is also a lifetime away from many Conservative voters. The reputational damage from all Johnson's U-turns must be causing the local associations to feel somewhat bewildered.

Is Sunak sharpening his knife?

We have to spend money now to invest, not only to level up, but also to help our recovery from Covid.

Things will look a lot clearer by the time of the next election.

Hopefully by then we will also have an appeals process in place for MPs who feel they have been wrongly treated in matters of discipline.

In normal times, Labour wouldn’t have any trouble with that idea.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What, introducing an appeals process? Don’t talk daft.

At some point there has to be an authority, if not the independent standards committee who should that be?

You claim others are making it party political then your own ludicrous assertion is to politicise the process by making MPs the arbiter of their own conduct and not an independent commissioner.

I know you enjoy streaming services but that doesn’t mean you have to exist on a time delay from the rest of the conversation. Almost everyone in the thread - Conservative Party members included - knows this is absolutely grubby. Defending the indefensible. It’s not party political.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

At some point there has to be an authority, if not the independent standards committee who should that be?

You claim others are making it party political then your own ludicrous assertion is to politicise the process by making MPs the arbiter of their own conduct and not an independent commissioner.

I know you enjoy streaming services but that doesn’t mean you have to exist on a time delay from the rest of the conversation. Almost everyone in the thread - Conservative Party members included - knows this is absolutely grubby. Defending the indefensible. It’s not party political.

Nope. You are conflating the idea of having an appeals process with letting Paterson off.

An appeals process is simply natural justice. As for who could hear the appeal, I have already suggested that it could be a separate committee of MPs. It could be the commissioner as long as he had not already been involved in the case, but alternatively it could be a committee of the House of Lords. It doesn’t matter really, as long as they are able to come to an independent decision.

As far as Paterson himself is concerned, the correct thing to have done would have been to suspend the decision pending a procedure change which was lacking in the process and that would benefit MPs of all persuasions in the future. This doesn’t mean that Paterson would be let off. It would simply mean that his concerns would be addressed. The penalty may well remain in place, but I guess we will never know now, will we?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Nope. You are conflating the idea of having an appeals process with letting Paterson off.

An appeals process is simply natural justice. As for who could hear the appeal, I have already suggested that it could be a separate committee of MPs. It could be the commissioner as long as he had not already been involved in the case, but alternatively it could be a committee of the House of Lords. It doesn’t matter really, as long as they are able to come to an independent decision.

As far as Paterson himself is concerned, the correct thing to have done would have been to suspend the decision pending a procedure change which was lacking in the process and that would benefit MPs of all persuasions in the future. This doesn’t mean that Paterson would be let off. It would simply mean that his concerns would be addressed. The penalty may well remain in place, but I guess we will never know now, will we?

The correct decision is he be prosecuted instead of being allowed to resign in disgrace and trouser an MP pension at the cost of the public purse.

The House of Lords don’t make me laugh - remind me who paid for Boris’ last holiday?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

The correct decision is he be prosecuted instead of being allowed to resign in disgrace and trouser an MP pension at the cost of the public purse.

The House of Lords don’t make me laugh - remind me who paid for Boris’ last holiday?

I have no problem with prosecuting wrongdoing, and I have not suggested to the contrary in anything I have said.

As for who hears the appeals, I have made two suggestions. There are others that would be perfectly justifiable. I’ve had worse problems to deal with in my time.

The important thing is that the body hearing appeals must be independent of the disciplinary investigation and decision, and it needs to be a speedy process.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I have no problem with prosecuting wrongdoing, and I have not suggested to the contrary in anything I have said.

As for who hears the appeals, I have made two suggestions. There are others that would be perfectly justifiable. I’ve had worse problems to deal with in my time.

The important thing is that the body hearing appeals must be independent of the disciplinary investigation and decision, and it needs to be a speedy process.

The most important thing is surely that we weed out corruption among MPs?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

The most important thing is surely that we weed out corruption among MPs?

Good luck with that one. I look forward to receiving your (workable) proposals in due course.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

How thoroughly depressing.

The next couple of years are going to be interesting now. The Torygraph rarely holds back when it has a chance to put the boot into Boris and this week the Wail has been at it too. In part this can be seen as them feeling safe enough to be roundly critical as Labour still has a mountain to climb before it looks like a credible opposition, let alone an alternative government. But once a pattern has set in, who knows? The rearing of that word “sleaze” ought to be ringing alarm bells all around Tory high command because it is in no small measure responsible for the party’s demise in 1997 despite the economy being in pretty good shape. They looked warm out and corrupt; Blair looked fresh, trustworthy and competent.

I am not a big fan of leftist politics and I would very much like to see the Conservatives get their house in order. I wonder whether many inside the parliamentary party will begin to think that means removing Boris before there’s another election.

Well said.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Good luck with that one. I look forward to receiving your (workable) proposals in due course.

Paterson out I think the current process is reasonable enough so long as Number 10 and Tory party keep their grubby paws off it.