The energy crisis

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Doesn't sound very free market it sounds like the public getting strung up. Prices go up: you pay. Prices go down: you still pay.

The prices the suppliers pay, HASN'T gone down yet.

Just as customers on a fixed rate deal can be paying less or more, for that period of time.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The prices the suppliers pay, HASN'T gone down yet.

Just as customers on a fixed rate deal can be paying less or more, for that period of time.

Their profits haven’t gone down either. All reward no risk.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Paul

What are these % figures you are quoting related to ?

it is the estimated increase in the price cap. They are figures from a company has said and publicised by Martin Lewis. They are based on the cost and changes as the cost does

---------- Post added at 23:16 ---------- Previous post was at 23:15 ----------

Incidentally Octopus has changed it forecast and that looks incredibly bleak also

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Their profits haven’t gone down either. All reward no risk.

What profits are the suppliers making, NOT the parent companies?
How come other countries around the world are also having gas price increases?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

What profits are the suppliers making, NOT the parent companies?

A pointless and arbitrary distinction.

How come other countries around the world are also having gas price increases?

I’m not sure how this goes against my point of all reward, no risk.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

A pointless and arbitrary distinction.

I’m not sure how this goes against my point of all reward, no risk.

The parent companies earn money from all around the world, and from various activities. Any profits the parent companies make, do not belong to the supplier companies, unless the profits are from the supplier company. If would be unfair competition, if a large multinational could use profits from elsewhere to undercut their competitors.

So they are all working in concert? What supposedly massive profits are the supplier companies making?
Octopus 2021 £85m LOSS.
SSE/OVO 2020 £7m LOSS
EDF 2020 £154m LOSS

During the height of covid, in one US oil market, the price was negative, ie they would pay you to take the oil. Not always a reward.

Direct comparisons are difficult but the typical Italian household is forecast to spend around £2,300 annually at present, compared to a current British price cap of £1,971. A July estimate for households in Germany put the average bill at £2,759.

And Germany is looking at adding a 500 or 1,000 Euros annual levy.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The parent companies earn money from all around the world, and from various activities. Any profits the parent companies make, do not belong to the supplier companies, unless the profits are from the supplier company. If would be unfair competition, if a large multinational could use profits from elsewhere to undercut their competitors.

So they are all working in concert? What supposedly massive profits are the supplier companies making?
Octopus 2021 £85m LOSS.
SSE/OVO 2020 £7m LOSS
EDF 2020 £154m LOSS

During the height of covid, in one US oil market, the price was negative, ie they would pay you to take the oil. Not always a reward.

And Germany is looking at adding a 500 or 1,000 Euros annual levy.

Well Octopus seem to moving ahead in increasing their share of the UK energy supply market, so they must see it as a market worth being in.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The parent companies earn money from all around the world, and from various activities. Any profits the parent companies make, do not belong to the supplier companies, unless the profits are from the supplier company. If would be unfair competition, if a large multinational could use profits from elsewhere to undercut their competitors.

So they are all working in concert? What supposedly massive profits are the supplier companies making?
Octopus 2021 £85m LOSS.
SSE/OVO 2020 £7m LOSS
EDF 2020 £154m LOSS

During the height of covid, in one US oil market, the price was negative, ie they would pay you to take the oil. Not always a reward.

And Germany is looking at adding a 500 or 1,000 Euros annual levy.

So they offshore the profits into parent companies to reduce tax liability?

I’m not sure this is the quick win you thought it was when you took to the keyboard.

Are they all working in concert? Potentially. However the market is so fundamentally flawed they could independently be price gouging consumers because rationally - with no risk - they can maximise their profits that are completely unlinked to the cost of energy supply.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

Well Octopus seem to moving ahead in increasing their share of the UK energy supply market, so they must see it as a market worth being in.

captured market now and the price cap being what it is and covering increases they see it as a winner

They bought a lot in advance when it was cheap so did not fall foul of the price rises and all their customers on deals and them having to buy in energy at increased prices. They played the game well

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

So they offshore the profits into parent companies to reduce tax liability?

I’m not sure this is the quick win you thought it was when you took to the keyboard.

Are they all working in concert? Potentially. However the market is so fundamentally flawed they could independently be price gouging consumers because rationally - with no risk - they can maximise their profits that are completely unlinked to the cost of energy supply.

It would still appear in their accounts as profits, and UK tax would be paid on any profits. After that, any profits left may be transferred to the parent company as they own it.
Where is the evidence that the suppliers are making massive profits?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

It would still appear in their accounts as profits, and UK tax would be paid on any profits. After that, any profits left may be transferred to the parent company as they own it.
Where is the evidence that the suppliers are making massive profits?

You are deliberately interpreting posts with the narrow scope of suppliers - the last actor in the supply chain - rather than considering the energy sector as a whole.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Where is the evidence that the suppliers are making massive profits?

It's the companies that extract the gas and oil that are making a killling. Some of these are also suppliers but that business isn't making much money as evidenced by companies that only supply going to the wall.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

It's the companies that extract the gas and oil that are making a killling. Some of these are also suppliers but that business isn't making much money as evidenced by companies that only supply going to the wall.

They ARE NOT making a "killing" by design or choice. Still completely nothing to do with the cost of energy to our homes. The suppliers ARE NOT making massive profits that can be magically redistributed to the customers.
Yet to see evidence to the contrary.
All articles on the issue tend to include parent companies and groups, not the supplier companies in isolation. Misleading by the media, as usual.

Originally Posted by jfman

You are deliberately interpreting posts with the narrow scope of suppliers -

You mean like the 30 or so "suppliers" that went bust in the last year or so because suppliers are clearly not making any profits.

Seems more like you are deliberately interpreting parent company profits as theirs, when they are not.

[Jaymoss]

too put it in the most simplest of terms it is the suppliers of the suppliers that are making the profit hahaha