Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) opens

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Damien

After over a decade Crossrail has finally opened: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-e...ondon-61507125

Rode it this morning. Really modern stations and trains. Connects together some parts of London, like Canary Wharf, that were not that well connected really well.

We may see fancy new trains up here in say 35 years. We've only just got rid of pacer trains because the London centric elite couldn't give a toss about the north - never have and never will. If only Yorkshire got nearer £1500 per person for public transport like London but no we get a measly £500 - interesting stats here. That's what London think is leveling up an that's why it's grim up north!!

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

We may see fancy new trains up here in say 35 years. We've only just got rid of pacer trains because the London centric elite couldn't give a toss about the north - never have and never will. If only Yorkshire got nearer £1500 per person for public transport like London but no we get a measly £500 - interesting stats here. That's what London think is leveling up an that's why it's grim up north!!

Question: Do you Yorkshiremen still squeak when you walk?

Asking for a Lancashire man.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Question: Do you Yorkshiremen still squeak when you walk?

Asking for a Lancashire man.

That would be telling Truth be known I'm actually Birkenhead born and bred .

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

That would be telling Truth be known I'm actually Birkenhead born and bred .

So was the family business Lever’s, Laird’s, or both?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

We may see fancy new trains up here in say 35 years. We've only just got rid of pacer trains because the London centric elite couldn't give a toss about the north - never have and never will. If only Yorkshire got nearer £1500 per person for public transport like London but no we get a measly £500 - interesting stats here. That's what London think is leveling up an that's why it's grim up north!!

There's tons of new trains up North, from the LNER Azumas on the East Coast Main line, the new sleek trains on the Transpennine Express, the new fleet under test for Merseyrail and doubtless many, many, more.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Chris

So was the family business Lever’s, Laird’s, or both?

Levers on my dad's and Laird's and Littlewoods on my mums.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

There's tons of new trains up North, from the LNER Azumas on the East Coast Main line, the new sleek trains on the Transpennine Express, the new fleet under test for Merseyrail and doubtless many, many, more.

Indeed. And Merseytravel (the strategic transport authority for the Liverpool city region formerly known as Merseyside) had to fund the purchase of the new class 777s because, had they left it to the usual process there was a material risk of the units, if owned by one of the leasing companies, being contracted to Merseyrail for a limited period and then getting redeployed somewhere more lucrative. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened with the class 507s these new trains are replacing. They were ordered for Merseyrail but then deployed in London for services out of Waterloo, only arriving in Merseyside several years later.

There are new trains appearing on northern and transpennine routes (I’m not giving you Azuma, they serve the East Coast main line into London). However this purchase programme has lagged the southeast of England by decades. Some southeastern lines are on their second generation of new rolling stock since privatisation while lines in the north of England have only just got rid of the dreaded Pacer - the ******* child of a Leyland bus and a freight wagon (yes, really) that was meant to be a 1980s stop-gap but instead hung around like the friend of a friend of a friend hours after the party was over. The state of rolling stock in some parts of the northern network was threatening to make the service unviable and the sign-off on new hardware here could no longer be avoided.

If we sound ungrateful, it’s because we’re still getting far less than what we need just to keep pace with economic growth in the south, let alone catch up.

And, before we get away from ourselves, this isn’t a Tory problem. Crossrail was conceived under a Labour government and a Labour(ish) London mayor.

---------- Post added at 22:38 ---------- Previous post was at 22:37 ----------

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

Levers on my dad's and Laird's and Littlewoods on my mums.

My mum probably looked after your dad’s pay packet

Originally Posted by Chris

And, before we get away from ourselves, this isn’t a Tory problem. Crossrail was conceived under a Labour government and a Labour(ish) London mayor.

Crossrail isn't the problem. The problem is the lack of equivalent ambition elsewhere which is a Labour issue of 97-2010 but also now a Tory one of 2010-2022. They've been in charge for 12 years now.

Crossrail may have come in late and over budget but it's built. It's a rare example of a grand infrastructure project actually completing its initial vision. An East-West Railway that tunnels below central London with several stations redeveloped in some of the most densely crowded areas of London.

Everything else in this country seems to get stuck in public consultation hell before being abandoned or dramatically scaled back.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

Indeed. And Merseytravel (the strategic transport authority for the Liverpool city region formerly known as Merseyside) had to fund the purchase of the new class 777s because, had they left it to the usual process there was a material risk of the units, if owned by one of the leasing companies, being contracted to Merseyrail for a limited period and then getting redeployed somewhere more lucrative. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened with the class 507s these new trains are replacing. They were ordered for Merseyrail but then deployed in London for services out of Waterloo, only arriving in Merseyside several years later.

The Liverpool City Region financed them this way because it was cheaper. Governments being able to borrow more cheaply than the private sector and no need to make a juicy margin either. They are a dedicated fleet for the region so can't easily be used outside it regardless of ownership.

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Originally Posted by Damien

Crossrail isn't the problem. The problem is the lack of equivalent ambition elsewhere which is a Labour issue of 97-2010 but also now a Tory one of 2010-2022. They've been in charge for 12 years now.

Crossrail may have come in late and over budget but it's built. It's a rare example of a grand infrastructure project actually completing its initial vision. An East-West Railway that tunnels below central London with several stations redeveloped in some of the most densely crowded areas of London.

Everything else in this country seems to get stuck in public consultation hell before being abandoned or dramatically scaled back.

HS2 is still a huge and ambitious project, though, even if it were to just go to Birmingham.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

HS2 is coming, and it’s a lot quicker than the London Underground!

If HS2 ever makes it to Leeds, I’ll be long dead by the time it does. The East Coast mainline is plenty fast enough. I can get to Kings Cross in 2hrs non-stop, and 2.15 with limited stops.

I’ve no desire to get to London any quicker.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

If HS2 ever makes it to Leeds, I’ll be long dead by the time it does. The East Coast mainline is plenty fast enough. I can get to Kings Cross in 2hrs non-stop, and 2.15 with limited stops.

I’ve no desire to get to London any quicker.

As you say, current lines are pretty good - around two hours to Manchester or Leeds and the trains are pretty comfortable too.

HS2 is a poor choice of brand, its need was really all about extra capacity and not so much speed, though the two are of course related.

[Hom3r]

Originally Posted by Chris

The people of this great northern city duly doff their caps and gasp at the latest technological marvel to be unveiled in our great capital. I’m truly chuffed that Londoners can now traverse their city 10 minutes quicker, or get to Canary Wharf without changing at Mornington Crescent.

It’s just a pity it went a teensy wee say bit over-budget isn’t it. I’m pretty sure we could have replaced every single ferry serving the Western Isles twice over with that money.

Originally Posted by Chris

Note ‘could have,’ as in ‘theoretically possible’

In reality, the SNP would have spent the money propping up any engineering firm with a Nat-voting boss, thrown several millions at them, then when they failed to deliver, throw some more millions at them and nationalise the mess into the bargain.

Trouble is NS is set on going it alone, so could Scotland actually afford this with its own money.


I would say no way.


Perhaps if she accepted her countrymen want a United Kingdom and not wasted money seeking yet another one in a lifetime vote, the money could have been spent on transport.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The Liverpool City Region financed them this way because it was cheaper. Governments being able to borrow more cheaply than the private sector and no need to make a juicy margin either. They are a dedicated fleet for the region so can't easily be used outside it regardless of ownership.

On the contrary - their tailoring to the Merseyrail network is a direct result of their ownership by Merseytravel. It is unlikely they would have been built in a way that more or less prevents them ever being used anywhere else had the usual financing and leasing from one of the main RoSCos been used.

Buying outright is obviously cheaper than leasing in the long run but comes with its own complications, like needing a lot more money up front. Some difficult discussions have been held in Liverpool in recent years, not least of which was tackling a pretty militant local branch of the RMT, which didn’t want to lose control of opening and closing the train doors (a surprising feature of the 507s and 508s in use on Merseyside is that the passenger door controls are blanked off - they are all opened and closed by the on-board guard at every station). Merseytravel insisted at the outset that if it was to find the new trains the wage bill needed to come down, in part by ending the antiquated practice of having a guard on every train.

There are sources directly confirming concerns from within Merseytravel about RoSCo-owned trains eventually being leased elsewhere as one of the motives for direct ownership. When I have time I’ll dig one out.

[Rillington]

The question for London's transport network now is whether Crossrail 2 will happen.

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Originally Posted by Pierre

Hurray for London. The residents of Leeds and Manchester are really happy for you and your new trains.

There have always been ideas for Manchester to have some sort of underground network - Picc-Vic was the closest to actually happening which would have provided on underground link between the city's two main railway stations and would have had several stations between the two. For the most part this has now been catered for by the tram network but the notion of some sort of city centre underground network in Manchester has never fully gone away.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Rillington

The question for London's transport network now is whether Crossrail 2 will happen.

Not in the foreseeable future but you can never say never . For now, even the Bakerloo line extension us not proceeding.