Russia has invaded Ukraine

[1andrew1]

Greece and Spain under pressure to provide Ukraine with air defence systems

Kyiv renews plea for Patriot and S-300 systems at meeting of foreign and defence ministers

Greece and Spain are under intense pressure from their EU and Nato allies to provide more air defence systems to Ukraine, as Kyiv demanded more aid at a meeting of EU foreign and defence ministers on Monday.

The Ukrainian leadership has made an urgent plea to western allies for seven additional air defence systems, such as US-made Patriots or Soviet-developed S-300s, as Russia steps up an air and missile campaign against the country’s cities and power infrastructure.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy wrote on X on Sunday: “Patriots can only be called air defence systems if they work and save lives rather than standing immobile somewhere in storage bases.”

Only Germany has announced a shipment, of one Patriot system.

Other EU leaders used a summit in Brussels last week to personally urge Spanish and Greek prime ministers Pedro Sánchez and Kyriakos Mitsotakis to donate some of their systems to Ukraine, according to people briefed on the discussions.

The two leaders, whose armed forces possess between them more than a dozen Patriot systems plus others such as S-300s, were told their need was not as great as Ukraine’s and that they did not face any imminent threat.

“We all know who has them, we all know where they are, and we all know who really needs them,” said one of the people.

https://www.ft.com/content/cc322202-...2-ae1c89deea10

Originally Posted by jfman

Zelensky regime

You do understand that you get accused of being pro-Putin precisely because of your fondness for terms like this, yes?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

You do understand that you get accused of being pro-Putin precisely because of your fondness for terms like this, yes?

I don’t think it makes me necessarily pro-Putin to note that Zelensky has banned opposition political parties, media and trade unions.

Given his stance is to fight to the last Ukranian when even he knows America aren’t adequately arming his conscripts on the front line it’s important - in my view - that there’s some kind of checks or balances. At present there’s no mechanism that could be used if public opinion wanted him removed and to pursue another path. The only way to remove him is a coup.

That said, I’ve probably called the Israelis a regime lately, so it’s a matter of conveying disrespect that I hold for him and his puppet government.

If only you conveyed the same disrespect for Putin and his puppet government…

It shows that you are pro-Putin that you never note that Putin has banned opposition political parties and media.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Hugh

If only you conveyed the same disrespect for Putin and his puppet government…

It shows that you are pro-Putin that you never note that Putin has banned opposition political parties and media.

I think Putin is likely the puppet master for his government.

Zelensky is America’s puppet in his.

The absence of me saying one thing doesn’t mean you can necessarily infer I think something else. It’s an extremely flawed logic. Whether I have disdain or not doesn’t change that he’s in charge of the dominant player in the region and America/the west aren’t going go change that with a paltry $60bn and more Ukrainian dead. Ukraine can only control what it can control which makes the political void in Kyiv more relevant than that in Moscow.

[Pierre]

Russia is just a big ammunition sponge at the moment. Western stocks of ammunition are depleted and we can’t deliver enough for a push, only enough to stay static.

But the biggest issue, I would argue, is that 3yrs in recruitment is stalled, or stalling. Doesn’t matter how much money or equipment you throw at it, if there’s no soldiers, or less than you optimally need.

JFMan’s observation of Zelenskyy effectively becoming a war time dictator, is valid.

Vitali Klitschko Is not 100% OK with some of Zelenskyy’s decisions of late, he’s a competent respected politician. What avenues does he have if things get worse? A coup d’etat?

https://www.politico.eu/article/russ...eed-that-ride/

as Kyiv demanded more aid at a meeting of EU foreign and defence ministers on Monday.

Demanded ?

Asking is fine, but demanding ? Not so much.

‘Demanded’ is a journalist’s interpretation of how it went down, but probably not far from the truth. Ukraine’s argument is that it is fighting Russia now so that Nato doesn’t have to later - if Putin gets out of this feeling he has got one over the Wicked West, within 10 years or so he is likely to try the ‘defending the Russian minority’ schtick he’s used in Georgia and southeastern Ukraine already, in places we already are obliged to defend, i.e. the Baltics. So if Zelensky is making demands, they’re not entirely unreasonable.

[jfman]

The flaw in Ukraine's argument is Putin knows we are obliged to defend them. That makes it a whole new ball game. We wouldn't be sending the scrap metal to the front line and stalling on establishing air superiority.

Those countries are allies. Ukraine are just meat for the grinder in between for the west. Which is why the whole charade is contemptible.

Originally Posted by jfman

The flaw in Ukraine's argument is Putin knows we are obliged to defend them. That makes it a whole new ball game. We wouldn't be sending the scrap metal to the front line and stalling on establishing air superiority.

Those countries are allies. Ukraine are just meat for the grinder in between for the west. Which is why the whole charade is contemptible.

The former KGB man who sent Russian soldiers in debadged uniforms into the Donbas, ordered a nerve agent poisoning on British soil and (at the very least) acted to cover up the use of a Russian air defence battery to bring down an airliner full of Dutch citizens wouldn’t find a way of interfering with the territorial integrity of the Baltic states. Sure he wouldn’t. (Especially in a scenario in which Nato has demonstrated it doesn’t have the stomach for a fight.)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

The former KGB man who sent Russian soldiers in debadged uniforms into the Donbas, ordered a nerve agent poisoning on British soil and (at the very least) acted to cover up the use of a Russian air defence battery to bring down an airliner full of Dutch citizens wouldn’t find a way of interfering with the territorial integrity of the Baltic states. Sure he wouldn’t. (Especially in a scenario in which Nato has demonstrated it doesn’t have the stomach for a fight.)

If NATO doesn't have the stomach for a fight in such a scenario that makes bribing Zelensky to sacrifice his population even more contemptible, not less.

A proxy war through Ukraine is equivalent fighting with both hands tied behind your back since the skilled personnel are long gone and the equipment is substandard.

And lost in all of this is where would Ukraine be in a position to withdraw their consent from being a part of this proxy war if there's no mechanism to challenge Zelensky.

[jfman]

The Zelensky regime tightens the noose further in order to drive up conscription numbers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68880085

Can only assume it’s not going too well if they’re after 60 year olds who don’t want to fight for Ukraine anyway.

Meanwhile, a survey by the Rating group in Ukraine suggested that 62% of Ukrainians were prepared to fight for their country at a time of war, while a third said they were not. It said that was the highest score among European nations.

[jfman]

I suspect the number of people who would self identify as being unwilling to fight for their country is somewhat lower than the number who would actually be unwilling to do so.

However you can certainly see the value of the Ukrainian meat grinder to countries like Poland where less than half identity as willing to fight. A stat also undoubtedly skewed as above.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

I suspect the number of people who would self identify as being unwilling to fight for their country is somewhat lower than the number who would actually be unwilling to do so.

However you can certainly see the value of the Ukrainian meat grinder to countries like Poland where less than half identity as willing to fight. A stat also undoubtedly skewed as above.

You clearly have a problem with the Ukrainian's fighting for their country so let me ask you this question: if you were in charge of Ukraine and could do anything, what would you do to end this conflict today?