Britain outside the EU

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So what? Sovereignty is the reason for Brexit and the 4% is priced in by the 52%.

It might be by you and Chris but there's plenty of Leavers I know who still believe the spin that we won't be worse off. Ask them who's paying for the customs checks and paperwork and it gets interesting!

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

You do realise that all these “hasn’t happened” arguments have all the credibility of a child asking if we’re there yet when the car’s barely off the drive?

I expect the Brexit process to be defended in this thread but this is not its strongest defence. If one of the cited selling points of the Referendum 6.5 years ago was to remove red tape, then surely we at least knew what the red tape was that we were going to get rid of? If this was impeding the economy then it would seem sensible to remove it at the same time as we were busy erecting more red tape for exporters? Or at the very least, given Covid, to have a timetable for its removal?

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

Think you aimed that one at Andrew by mistake, you should be pulling Old Boy up on his 'how do you know as it hasn't happened yet' arguements he does it quite often (for example, see his post immediately before the one of yours I've quoted).

To be honest though, Old Boy is nothing but consistent - his claims of the benefits still to come from Brexit are just like a rehash of his claims of the (impendingish) end of TV as we know in the next cough cough number of years.

Yup. Optimism is a likable personality trait, but you can't base a business or economy on it.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It might be by you and Chris but there's plenty of Leavers I know who still believe the spin that we won't be worse off. Ask them who's paying for the customs checks and paperwork and it gets interesting!

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------


I expect the Brexit process to be defended in this thread but this is not its strongest defence. If one of the cited selling points of the Referendum 6.5 years ago was to remove red tape, then surely we at least knew what the red tape was that we were going to get rid of? If this was impeding the economy then it would seem sensible to remove it at the same time as we were busy erecting more red tape for exporters? Or at the very least, given Covid, to have a timetable for its removal?

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------


Yup. Optimism is a likable personality trait, but you can't base a business or economy on it.

Yup. It’s like having ‘hope’ in a plan - if it’s in your plan, you’re likely to fail…

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

If one of the cited selling points of the Referendum 6.5 years ago was to remove red tape, then surely we at least knew what the red tape was that we were going to get rid of?

I don’t recall “red tape” being a major deal maker/breaker in the debate……such as it was.

Also if you think Jimmy Davis, from Peterlee was basing his decision on that, you have learnt nothing in the last 5 years.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I expect the Brexit process to be defended in this thread but this is not its strongest defence. If one of the cited selling points of the Referendum 6.5 years ago was to remove red tape, then surely we at least knew what the red tape was that we were going to get rid of? If this was impeding the economy then it would seem sensible to remove it at the same time as we were busy erecting more red tape for exporters? Or at the very least, given Covid, to have a timetable for its removal?

Your appeal to the date of the referendum is a deliberate obfuscation.

Regulatory change is something that couldn’t be planned in any serious way while the degree or ongoing alignment with the EU was unresolved. Don’t forget (I’m sure you haven’t really) that for 3 years the government was led by Theresa May who clearly wanted to retain as much alignment with the EU as she could get away with.

As for covid, well most politicians seem to accept that these are highly unusual times. Even the SNP accepts its own constitutional project must wait until some semblance of normality has returned. And once we get do get to it, it would be very tricky to deal with “regulations” in a single act of parliament. There are lots of different rules affecting lots of different things. Regulatory divergence from the EU is a project that will unfold organically over many, many years.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Also if you think Jimmy Davis, from Peterlee was basing his decision on that, you have learnt nothing in the last 5 years.

You are right. If it is the Jimmy Davis from Peterlee that I know of, it was all about getting rid of foreigners.

---------- Post added at 11:48 ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Yup. It’s like having ‘hope’ in a plan - if it’s in your plan, you’re likely to fail…

Slight correction: hope was the Plan. Oh, and "opportunities"

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So what? Sovereignty is the reason for Brexit and the 4% is priced in by the 52%.

Now we are getting to the crux of things. You and others were happy to pay* any price to get this project over the line. However, the majority of those voting Leave were not. In fact, they were expecting little or no downside because that is what they were told.

If the self-evident risks were clearly acknowledged by Leave at the time, they would not have won. This is why this is and was the Big Con.

*more accurately, for others to pay

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

<SNIP>

Now we are getting to the crux of things. You and others were happy to pay* any price to get this project over the line. However, the majority of those voting Leave were not. In fact, they were expecting little or no downside because that is what they were told.

If the self-evident risks were clearly acknowledged by Leave at the time, they would not have won. This is why this is and was the Big Con.

*more accurately, for others to pay

I only went as far as the 4% you have claimed. I don't think you have any evidence that the bulk of the 52% bought the sunlit uplands guff nor that there would be no downsides.

It appears that you have hung your Remainer credentials on the fall in GDP whereas that is recoverable.

You are a very bitter Remainer.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I only went as far as the 4% you have claimed. I don't think you have any evidence that the bulk of the 52% bought the sunlit uplands guff nor that there would be no downsides

I quoted a reference to exactly this earlier in this thread, I guess it was not in blue so you missed it.

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

It seems the French have taken back control:

https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status...45791027179524

URGENT UPDATE FOR BRITISH RESIDENTS IN EU: Following a French Government decision, on 28/12/2021, unless they hold French residency, British citizens are now considered 3rd country citizens and can no longer transit France by road to reach their country of residence in the EU.

[papa smurf]

I feel that someone is still bitter and twisted about losing the referendum. this time next year we'll be millionaires

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I quoted a reference to exactly this earlier in this thread, I guess it was not in blue so you missed it.

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

It seems the French have taken back control:

https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status...45791027179524

I think you'll find that is incorrect. Don't believe everything you see on social media.

[Julian]

Even an article in the eu loving guanriad refers to the ban as a COVID decision.

So nothing at all to do with this thread as I'm sure the poster knew.

Link

Originally Posted by Julian

Even an article in the eu loving guanriad refers to the ban as a COVID decision.

So nothing at all to do with this thread as I'm sure the poster knew.

Link

Surely the French "taking control of their borders" is relevant to Brexit thread, as that was one of the main drivers for Leave voters?

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/0...endum-and-why/

One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.”

[jfman]

I think third country status enables France to do this to us. I doubt their paymasters in Berlin would allow it to happen to ze Germans.

I know the forum loves binary but being Brexit or Covid aren’t mutually exclusive positions for this one.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Surely the French "taking control of their borders" is relevant to Brexit thread, as that was one of the main drivers for Leave voters?

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/0...endum-and-why/

On what planet?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by pip08456

I think you'll find that is incorrect. Don't believe everything you see on social media.

Here's the details on the Eurotunnel web site:

https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/travel...covid-19/#foca and the French Consulate site: https://uk.ambafrance.org/FAQ-Travel...nce-and-the-UK

Originally Posted by Julian

Even an article in the eu loving guanriad refers to the ban as a COVID decision.

So nothing at all to do with this thread as I'm sure the poster knew.

Link

You really haven't being paying attention have you? Brexit is all about sovereignty (as Seph will attest) and taking control of your borders .. which the French have done.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I think third country status enables France to do this to us. I doubt their paymasters in Berlin would allow it to happen to ze Germans.

I know the forum loves binary but being Brexit or Covid aren’t mutually exclusive positions for this one.

I think this degree of nuance may be a bridge too far

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I quoted a reference to exactly this earlier in this thread, I guess it was not in blue so you missed it.

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

It seems the French have taken back control:

https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status...45791027179524

The spitefulness of Macron is one good reason for not wanting to be in the EU which he will now try to dominate.