Hamas Israel War

Have Hamas recruited some forum members ?
Reading this topic you could get that impression.

[Ms NTL]

Originally Posted by Paul

Have Hamas recruited some forum members ?
Reading this topic you could get that impression.

Do you deny that the OP is the mouthpiece of שר ההסברה?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

This will be my last post tonight and I’ll pick it tomorrow if required.

I don’t think that you can draw any parallels between what Palestinians are going through now or have been through in the past and the Holocaust. They not at all comparable….at all.

Well, we know they can’t do it now. But their mindset is of that. If they could they bloody well would. Israel is 100% surrounded…completely….by states that want to see them destroyed.

Well, call me old school. I can get along with brutality. But I was surprised when babies and toddlers were beheaded. There is nothing normal about that. Perhaps if Gengis Khan was behind the attacks I could understand.

And there you have it.

Replace bombs raining down from Israel to executing children and babies by Hamas and you have the exact same point. Is Israeli vengeance the “natural destination”?

Insert Spiderman meme here.

Israeli vengeance is absolutely the natural destination for some however that doesn’t exempt them from their duty to civilians even if they are happy to ignore the law and their moral code is “we don’t behead babies but incinerating them in a bomb blast is a grey area”.

If they act like terrorists under a national flag and commit war crimes they should - rightly - be condemned unequivocally.

The Spiderman meme is apt but if it’s Israel and Hamas pointing at each other that says more about Israel than Hamas.

---------- Post added at 06:39 ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 ----------

Originally Posted by Ms NTL

Do you deny that the OP is the mouthpiece of שר ההסברה?

I do wonder when we will get a thread title refresh as we often do with fast moving events.

With Israel launching its ground offensive in coming days having ordered somewhere between 700,000 and a million people to flee northern Gaza to the south it’s going to become quite dated quite fast. A bit like a Workd War 2 thread in 1944 titled “Germany invade Poland”.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s helpful if you don’t selectively quote.



This is the IDF claim as yet uncorroborated.

"say with relative confidence" is corroboration.
One possibility for any confusion is that it is DEFINITE that people were beheaded AND babies were killed.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

"say with relative confidence" is corroboration.
One possibility for any confusion is that it is DEFINITE that people were beheaded AND babies were killed.

You need to look up what corroboration to a claim actually is.

In any case this CNN article is now superseded by the Jerusalem Post article that Hugh linked to. NBC carried a similar story to CNN on misinformation spreading and the absence of sources to independently corroborate the veracity of IDF claims, including US officials unable to do so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/interne...ial-rcna119902

I find it odd that the defense of some of this stuff is arguing exactly how the babies were murdered as if it makes much of a difference. It's sick.

The attacks were pure evil. Callous, barbaric, murder. I was going to say it was indiscriminate but it wasn't, they intentionally targeted the weakest and most innocent people as well.

And today there are Jewish Schools in London not opening out of fear and they will be attacked by people celebrating what happened. It's antisemitism pure and simple.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Damien

I find it odd that the defense of some of this stuff is arguing exactly how the babies were murdered as if it makes much of a difference. It's sick.

The attacks were pure evil. Callous, barbaric, murder. I was going to say it was indiscriminate but it wasn't, they intentionally targeted the weakest and most innocent people as well.

And today there are Jewish Schools in London not opening out of fear and they will be attacked by people celebrating what happened. It's antisemitism pure and simple.

Facts are absolutely important if they’re going to make their way onto front pages around the world to achieve some kind of moral authority for war crimes in Gaza.

Nobody - anywhere - is defending Hamas and the implication that criticism of Israel is doing so is unhelpful for any meaningful discussion going forward. I’m also sceptical of your decision to describe planned protests supporting the Palestinian people - the actual reason for the schools closing - as “celebrating what happened”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67096327

The BBC have a clarification at the bottom of their article.

FWIW either way I think protesting outside Jewish schools is a bad look regardless of the reason. Although I don’t think that’s the actual plan anyway. The rhetoric is a close second to the facts.

If only the parents in Gaza had the luxury and privilege to keep their children safe by simply keeping them home.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Just reading over this thread, and Twitter and other sources. It’s just depressing.

Babies beheaded, children beheaded and burnt alive. Children executed in front of parents, young women raped, families tortured………….

Oh but, what about, what about, I’ll raise you women and children bombed, babies under rubble, cutting off water, food, fuel, power,

Equivalence?

In WWII, the allies did some bad things. Was Dresden necessary? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki necessary? ( US fire bombing actually killed more people in Japan). The allies did bad things. But were they evil?

War is nasty and horrible, don’t expect reasonable outcomes or actions.

But consider evil……….

The Nazi death camps were evil. Anyone that has watched the footage when the allies first entered those camps will have seen hell on Earth. When the allies made the local German residents walk around the death camps their reactions said it all.

Israel have done and are now doing things that are nasty and arguably vindictive, but are they Evil?

Beheading children, burning them alive, executing them in front of their families, that is evil.

Let’s say Hamas, was big enough and powerful enough to totally invade and take over Israel. Based on what just happened, We would witness another holocaust, they would kill in cold blood every Jew. Men, women and children. Just like the Nazis.

Could you say the same of Israel to Palestinians? Israel are already the big and powerful for over 70 years and still no genocide.

So I find no equivalence between what Hamas have done and what Israel have done. Both have done very bad things. But I find only one to be evil.

I find it interesting that your go to place is to compare nation states, acting in a World War context and then make pretend comparisons. The real world is nothing like this which I suspect you know but you seem to want to obfuscate the discussion with exaggerated claims to try and legitimise the carrying of war crimes.

You seem to be claiming that people are trying to make a kind of equivalence whatever that means in this context. The main argument here is that Israel does not have a blank cheque for its actions no matter what emotive and sometimes imaginary comparisons are made.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

You need to look up what corroboration to a claim actually is.

In any case this CNN article is now superseded by the Jerusalem Post article that Hugh linked to. NBC carried a similar story to CNN on misinformation spreading and the absence of sources to independently corroborate the veracity of IDF claims, including US officials unable to do so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/interne...ial-rcna119902

It's also a question of timing. What was reported and when. Is what was reported before still being reported currently.
Undeniable that people were beheaded and that babies were killed. Just because it may not be that babies were beheaded seems to be wildly missing the point.
How many attacks by Hamas is Israel expected to put up with before responding?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

It's also a question of timing. What was reported and when. Is what was reported before still being reported currently.
Undeniable that people were beheaded and that babies were killed. Just because it may not be that babies were beheaded seems to be wildly missing the point.

All the date stamps are there for everyone to consider my post, the CNN article and other relevant news articles available then and now.

If the details aren’t important they wouldn’t be published. Since they are they might as well get it right with so many lives at stake in Israel’s (dis)proportionate response.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

How many attacks by Hamas is Israel expected to put up with before responding?

I can’t find a single post anywhere where anyone has suggested Israel don’t respond at all. Something on the scale below war crimes would be immediately more satisfactory from my point of view.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

All the date stamps are there for everyone to consider my post, the CNN article and other relevant news articles available then and now.

If the details aren’t important they wouldn’t be published. Since they are they might as well get it right with so many lives at stake in Israel’s (dis)proportionate response.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------



I can’t find a single post anywhere where anyone has suggested Israel don’t respond at all. Something on the scale below war crimes would be immediately more satisfactory from my point of view.

So there aren't people suggesting that Israel not respond and calling for a one-sided ceasefire instead?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So there aren't people suggesting that Israel not respond and calling for a one-sided ceasefire instead?

How can a ceasefire be one-sided?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

And today there are Jewish Schools in London not opening out of fear and they will be attacked by people celebrating what happened. It's antisemitism pure and simple.

I know one of the schools well through my work and before I got ill used to volunteer to provide additional security there, whatever has happed in Israel these little people weren't responsible and it used to piss me off that people thought otherwise to the extent of trying to get into the school

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

How can a ceasefire be one-sided?

Because it comes just AFTER one side has attacked. Any reaction by Israel is not to be allowed.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So there aren't people suggesting that Israel not respond and calling for a one-sided ceasefire instead?

No, there are not, at least not here.