13-06-2021, 17:49
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#1291
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067
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 48
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
And you are defending that - Jeez. They should be more reasonable given the difficulties the "letter" is causing in NI.
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Yes, I am defending this.
They agreed to this
We agreed to this
The country wanted out, this is out
---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
No, I didn’t say that. I said that the problem was with the way the EU was interpreting the Protocol, not the Protocol itself.
Trust you to keep batting for the other side. Macron has said: “Nothing is negotiable. Everything is applicable.”
In other words, his mind is made up and if the Northern Irish people (whom he does not regard as U.K. citizens!) suffer food shortages as a result of the EU interpretation of the Protocol, he doesn’t give two hoots.
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Is Macron speaking from a position of authority? Or is he being a lone voice ?
I’m not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately it’s us who agreed the terms with the EU.
---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456
The problem is it is not the letter of the law.
Link
There cannot be "letter of the law" where ambiguity exists.
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Where is the ambiguity that states chilled meat products cannot be imported into the EU market from non EU countries ? Seems pretty unambiguous ?
---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------
Sephi/OB
Why hasn’t Boris walked or threatened to walk away from the treaty ?
He threatened to walk away enough times during the negotiations
---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------
To add,
sephi/ob (amongst many others) clearly stated that we could manage just fine without the EU. Yet here we are a little over six months in and they’re demanding the EU’s assistance in solving a problem of our own creation.
How deliciously ironic.
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13-06-2021, 18:25
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#1292
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Yes, I am defending this.
They agreed to this
We agreed to this
The country wanted out, this is out
---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------
Is Macron speaking from a position of authority? Or is he being a lone voice ?
I’m not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately it’s us who agreed the terms with the EU.
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You are just not getting it, are you? It was with reluctance that we signed up to the protocol, but, yes, we signed it. As with any new process, documents have to be interpreted.
The problem is that the EU will only interpret this in a way that maximises our problems and takes no account of the problems this causes in NI.
There are straight forward ways that the document as written can be made to work, but the EU is being its normal inflexible and spiteful self.
And you wonder why Brexiteers wanted out.
How can you defend this? That’s why I say you are batting for the other side. As ever.
---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Where is the ambiguity that states chilled meat products cannot be imported into the EU market from non EU countries ? Seems pretty unambiguous ?.
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Er - except that we are not complaining that we cannot export chilled meat products to the EU. Are you trying to divert the argument or misrepresent what those who disagree with you have said?
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13-06-2021, 18:30
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#1293
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067
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 48
Services: Many
Posts: 4,694
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Sorry, why did we have to sign it ? That’s a complete u turn OB for you from your earlier comments.
Perhaps you could advise why these documents weren’t ‘interpreted’ before they were signed ? Otherwise you’ve basically admitted that the U.K. government didn’t fully understand what they were agreeing too
This is not an us vs them situation.
---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
You are just not getting it, are you? It was with reluctance that we signed up to the protocol, but, yes, we signed it. As with any new process, documents have to be interpreted.
The problem is that the EU will only interpret this in a way that maximises our problems and takes no account of the problems this causes in NI.
There are straight forward ways that the document as written can be made to work, but the EU is being its normal inflexible and spiteful self.
And you wonder why Brexiteers wanted out.
How can you defend this? That’s why I say you are batting for the other side. As ever.
---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------
Er - except that we are not complaining that we cannot export chilled meat products to the EU. Are you trying to divert the argument or misrepresent what those who disagree with you have said?
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You really are a loon, I hope you get the help you need
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13-06-2021, 18:34
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#1294
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Sephi/OB
Why hasn’t Boris walked or threatened to walk away from the treaty ?
He threatened to walk away enough times during the negotiations
To add,
sephi/ob (amongst many others) clearly stated that we could manage just fine without the EU. Yet here we are a little over six months in and they’re demanding the EU’s assistance in solving a problem of our own creation.
How deliciously ironic.
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As I said, the problem is the interpretation and the inflexibility of the EU.
The PM went with the deal because that’s what he was being pressured to do, but as the EU continue to demonstrate how unreasonable they can be, they will be making the case for us that we should give notice to terminate the Brexit deal.
It’s not the end of the world, and at least it will enable us to make more effective use of our time. In the meantime, we will look elsewhere for as many of our imports as is practical, and this will not be good news for the EU. But you know what, tough!
---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Sorry, why did we have to sign it ? That’s a complete u turn OB for you from your earlier comments.
Perhaps you could advise why these documents weren’t ‘interpreted’ before they were signed ? Otherwise you’ve basically admitted that the U.K. government didn’t fully understand what they were agreeing too
This is not an us vs them situation.
---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------
You really are a loon, I hope you get the help you need
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Sorry, mate but it’s not me that’s the loon. As I have said more than once now, the problem is not so much the document as its interpretation. You may want to look that word up if you don’t understand what it means.
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13-06-2021, 18:34
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#1295
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laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,295
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Re: Britain outside the EU
"Pressured"?
He rushed the Agreement through the HoC in 16 hours - he’s the one who put the pressure on.
The EU offered an Extension -BoJo said "no".
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-f...iod-extension/
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Last edited by Hugh; 13-06-2021 at 18:40.
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13-06-2021, 18:36
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#1296
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Sad Doig Fan!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Which chilled meat products are being imported into the EU Market?
Quote:
Northern Ireland remains legally in the UK Customs Territory and part of any future UK trade deals. This results in a de jure customs border on the island of Ireland, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
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13-06-2021, 18:56
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#1297
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Sulking in the Corner
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
<SNIP>
I’m not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately it’s us who agreed the terms with the EU.
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You can blame the Guvmin for agreeing to the deal - and you'd be right to. Except that you won't say the Guvmin should not have signed that deal. Should they, in your view?
NI is struggling with food imports and that should be your first concern, not Johnson's past stupidity (no deal would have been better).
You Remainers are revelling (you'll deny that) in "I told you so" mode but you're not honest enough to come out and say that the deal was so bad for the UK that we should just have left.
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13-06-2021, 19:22
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#1298
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cf.mega pornstar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,856
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Let’s follow this logically
1. The U.K. implements and obides by the treaty it agreed too (which it becomes
clearer by the day they didn’t have the full picture of what they were agreeing to)
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You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for
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13-06-2021, 19:35
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#1299
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy
You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for
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They were trying to sit on the fence, and we all know that just leads to splinters in the cheeks.
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13-06-2021, 19:45
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#1300
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
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Yes, pressured. Have you forgotten all the angst expressed by the opposition about getting a deal? ‘No deal’ was presented as being nothing short of apocalyptic.
Most Brexiteers wanted a ‘no deal’ and now everyone knows why.
You know very well why there was no appetite for an extension. I’m a little surprised that you have forgotten already (which, of course, you haven’t).
---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy
You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for
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Have you missed the point that the issue is not what we have signed up for, but a reasonable interpretation of the Protocol’s provisions?
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13-06-2021, 20:49
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#1301
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cf.mega pornstar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,856
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
Have you missed the point that the issue is not what we have signed up for, but a reasonable interpretation of the Protocol’s provisions?
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That's not a point, why are you relying on interpretation with a legally binding treaty, you rely on what's written in it not on how someone might interpret it, they saw your mate bozo coming, surprised he didn't come back with a handful of magic beans in exchange for the crown jewels whilst he was at it
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13-06-2021, 20:57
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#1302
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy
That's not a point, why are you relying on interpretation with a legally binding treaty, you rely on what's written in it not on how someone might interpret it, they saw your mate bozo coming, surprised he didn't come back with a handful of magic beans in exchange for the crown jewels whilst he was at it
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Every document needs interpretation. That’s what courts are there for!
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13-06-2021, 21:12
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#1303
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,347
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
Every document needs interpretation. That’s what courts are there for!
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The courts are there as a remedy in the last resort for when things go wrong. Not as an everday part of the process.
---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy
That's not a point, why are you relying on interpretation with a legally binding treaty, you rely on what's written in it not on how someone might interpret it, they saw your mate bozo [Bojo] coming, surprised he didn't come back with a handful of magic beans in exchange for the crown jewels whilst he was at it
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13-06-2021, 21:13
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#1304
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1
The courts are there as a remedy in the last resort for when things go wrong. Not as an everday part of the process.
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I thought they were also used to give a definitive answer where both parties claimed the 'wording' meant different things
Edit: I thought that Brown character had sold all the crown jewels ages ago?
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13-06-2021, 21:29
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#1305
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Sulking in the Corner
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
I thought they were also used to give a definitive answer where both parties claimed the 'wording' meant different things
Edit: I thought that Brown character had sold all the crown jewels ages ago?
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Trouble is that on the NI Protocol, the ECJ is the enforcement authority.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the...thern-ireland/
Quote:
The UK and EU had other objectives as well as avoiding a hard Irish border and protecting the 1998 Agreement. These are reflected in the details of the Protocol. The Protocol is designed to meet the UK Government’s desire to be able to diverge from EU rules and conduct an independent trade policy, while protecting the legal integrity of the EU’s single market.
It does this by:
Continuing to apply certain EU rules (most particularly in relation to the manufacture and sale of goods) in Northern Ireland. The application of these rules is implemented by UK authorities, but overseen by the European Commission. They can be, ultimately, enforced by the European Court of Justice (ECJ).
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