Your predictions under Labour

[Escapee]

Forget taxing the rich, it's never going to happen.

The only way to guarantee that the tax can be collected is by taking it at source, which is what PAYE does. It's far easier for the rich to be portable, hit them with big tax increases and they will be off to somewhere that's less of a communist state just like they did in the 1970s.

The only guaranteed way of raising more tax is to screw those in the middle, who are generally the ones that have taken risks to have that success.

My wife would pay tax twice on the money she earns abroad if she brought it into this country.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You really are not listening here. I am not talking about PAYE earnings which a lot of high net worth individuals do not receive in meaningful terms. I know about RSU's, I get them and I pay an effective tax rate of over 50% on them. Again, I am not talking about the people who receive taxed at source income.

Here's an article that covers this problem: https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/resea...ich-really-pay



This survey was done in 2015-2016. The wealth inequality has increases markedly since then. So back to my point:



The fact that you return back to the PAYE use case means you are not looking at those who generate their wealth through other means, exactly as intended.

I will leave this point with you, again from the article above:



and lastly, Rishi Sunak paid effective tax rate of 23% on £2.2m income in 2023, roughly the same as an average nurse earning £37,000. You would find this perfectly acceptable I presume?

Labour should commission a root & branch reform of the tax system for high net worth individuals and large corporates to make the playing field a bit more level.

I think the issue is one of perspective

Someone on 30k per year looks at someone on 60k per year and says, they earn twice what I do, they can afford to pay a bit more tax , they can change their lifestyle. Someone on 60k looks at someone on a 100k per year and thinks the same. The issue is that people always think that the ring above should pay more and if required adjust their lifestyle to fit without needing to make a change themselves

Going back to PAYE and RSU and I agree that this is personal, not general

I was given a block of RSU’s and I also went into an agreement whereby I purchased an amount of RSU’s per month with money I had already paid tax on.

Company gets bought and taken private the RSU’s are converted into cash equities which vest/are paid out at the same time as RSU’s would have vested. Cash equities are paid as PAYE which i pay tax at 45%, NI and employers NI


Hardly seems fair does it ?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Escapee

Forget taxing the rich, it's never going to happen.

The only way to guarantee that the tax can be collected is by taking it at source, which is what PAYE does. It's far easier for the rich to be portable, hit them with big tax increases and they will be off to somewhere that's less of a communist state just like they did in the 1970s.

The only guaranteed way of raising more tax is to screw those in the middle, who are generally the ones that have taken risks to have that success.

My wife would pay tax twice on the money she earns abroad if she brought it into this country.

Exactly what they want you to think. Their work is done ...

A point to ponder:

The wealth of the UK's billionaires has skyrocketed by over 1000% between 1990 and 2022, ballooning by around £600bn. The number of billionaires exploded from 15 in 1990 to 177 this year. Between 2020 and 2022 alone, billionaire wealth increased by almost £150bn.

---------- Post added at 21:00 ---------- Previous post was at 20:51 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I think the issue is one of perspective

Someone on 30k per year looks at someone on 60k per year and says, they earn twice what I do, they can afford to pay a bit more tax , they can change their lifestyle. Someone on 60k looks at someone on a 100k per year and thinks the same. The issue is that people always think that the ring above should pay more and if required adjust their lifestyle to fit without needing to make a change themselves

Going back to PAYE and RSU and I agree that this is personal, not general

I was given a block of RSU’s and I also went into an agreement whereby I purchased an amount of RSU’s per month with money I had already paid tax on.

Company gets bought and taken private the RSU’s are converted into cash equities which vest/are paid out at the same time as RSU’s would have vested. Cash equities are paid as PAYE which i pay tax at 45%, NI and employers NI


Hardly seems fair does it ?

Yes, I agree it is not fair. I don't like paying 50+% tax rate when those with more money than they can spend, pay a fraction of this. The irony here is that they would not even notice the sums that that should be paying.

Don't forget, the country has been groomed for decades to think the ultra wealthy are beyond reach and can raise revenue from the country with a minimal tax burden while the vast majority of the population pay tax rates far in excess of these.

The funniest part of this whole circus is when those who are paying the 30% or 40% tax rate where they have no choice, at the same time, call those who think the ultra-wealthy should pay more crazy Who are really the crazy ones?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Exactly what they want you to think. Their work is done ...

A point to ponder:



---------- Post added at 21:00 ---------- Previous post was at 20:51 ----------



Yes, I agree it is not fair. I don't like paying 50+% tax rate when those with more money than they can spend, pay a fraction of this. The irony here is that they would not even notice the sums that that should be paying.

Don't forget, the country has been groomed for decades to think the ultra wealthy are beyond reach and can raise revenue from the country with a minimal tax burden while the vast majority of the population pay tax rates far in excess of these.

The funniest part of this whole circus is when those who are paying the 30% or 40% tax rate where they have no choice, at the same time, call those who think the ultra-wealthy should pay more crazy Who are really the crazy ones?

Like I said the view of who is ultra wealthy is entirely relative someone on minimum wage probably views someone on 50k as being ultra wealthy,someone who earns 50k sees someone on 150k as being ultra wealthy etc etc and each person in the lower bracket expects the person in the next bracket up to make the sacrifice.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Like I said the view of who is ultra wealthy is entirely relative someone on minimum wage probably views someone on 50k as being ultra wealthy,someone who earns 50k sees someone on 150k as being ultra wealthy etc etc and each person in the lower bracket expects the person in the next bracket up to make the sacrifice.

I disagree. I am being very objective and definitive. In my examples, I would draw the line at maybe £5 to £10 million net worth. There is no confusion.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I disagree. I am being very objective and definitive. In my examples, I would draw the line at maybe £5 to £10 million net worth. There is no confusion.

To clarify my statement is how I believe that the general public view ‘ultra wealthy’ not you specifically

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

To clarify my statement is how I believe that the general public view ‘ultra wealthy’ not you specifically

Agreed and therein lies the problem ... exactly as designed

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You really are not listening here. I am not talking about PAYE earnings which a lot of high net worth individuals do not receive in meaningful terms. I know about RSU's, I get them and I pay an effective tax rate of over 50% on them. Again, I am not talking about the people who receive taxed at source income.

Here's an article that covers this problem: https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/resea...ich-really-pay



This survey was done in 2015-2016. The wealth inequality has increases markedly since then. So back to my point:



The fact that you return back to the PAYE use case means you are not looking at those who generate their wealth through other means, exactly as intended.

I will leave this point with you, again from the article above:



and lastly, Rishi Sunak paid effective tax rate of 23% on £2.2m income in 2023, roughly the same as an average nurse earning £37,000. You would find this perfectly acceptable I presume?
Repeat good accountants
Labour should commission a root & branch reform of the tax system for high net worth individuals and large corporates to make the playing field a bit more level.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Exactly what they want you to think. Their work is done ...

A point to ponder:



---------- Post added at 21:00 ---------- Previous post was at 20:51 ----------



Yes, I agree it is not fair. I don't like paying 50+% tax rate when those with more money than they can spend, pay a fraction of this. The irony here is that they would not even notice the sums that that should be paying.

Don't forget, the country has been groomed for decades to think the ultra wealthy are beyond reach and can raise revenue from the country with a minimal tax burden while the vast majority of the population pay tax rates far in excess of these.

The funniest part of this whole circus is when those who are paying the 30% or 40% tax rate where they have no choice, at the same time, call those who think the ultra-wealthy should pay more crazy Who are really the crazy ones?

it's not about "what they want me think", it's about common sense and practicality. taxing the rich didn't work in the 1970s, and people are more portable these days so it will be less likely to work.

I'm not envious or even the bit interested how much someone else earns or has in the bank, what house they live in, what car they drive or how many helicopters they own, I'm only interested in how much I'm being screwed.

The answer to reducing my tax to a fair level where I'm not having over 60% taken off me isn't to chase a unicorn tax.

Just to clarify the 60% figure - are you stating that if you earned, say, £150k, you would have tax (including NI (employer & employee)) deductions of £90k?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Escapee

it's not about "what they want me think", it's about common sense and practicality. taxing the rich didn't work in the 1970s, and people are more portable these days so it will be less likely to work.

I'm not envious or even the bit interested how much someone else earns or has in the bank, what house they live in, what car they drive or how many helicopters they own, I'm only interested in how much I'm being screwed.

The answer to reducing my tax to a fair level where I'm not having over 60% taken off me isn't to chase a unicorn tax.

Again, you preach the line again: "taxing the rich does not work". That is what they want you to say and you duly oblige

However the most ironic part is that you do not mind how many helicopters they own, how many mansions they have, etc. yet you whinge about paying too much tax. Spoiler alert: if they paid more tax (much smaller, as a percentage, than you do), you would not have to pay so much.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Just to clarify the 60% figure - are you stating that if you earned, say, £150k, you would have tax (including NI (employer & employee)) deductions of £90k?

That's not exactly what I am getting at.

I'm not going to quote figures because that's my business, but as an example:

I am paid weekly on the contract that is inside IR35, so it's quite easy for me to break down the costs on a weekly basis.

If I work 4 days instead of 5, the PAYE deductions mean that the difference in my pocket is that I lose is within a few pounds equivalent to a third of a days pay. Working that fifth day gives the taxman 66% of it.

If I work 3 days instead of 5, for those 2 days I haven't worked I lose the equivalent of two thirds of a days pay.

Hence why I have discussed with the client that if they want me to renew the contract I will only renew the contract with less days. Losing two thirds of a days pay and having two days off is a no brainer.

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Again, you preach the line again: "taxing the rich does not work". That is what they want you to say and you duly oblige

However the most ironic part is that you do not mind how many helicopters they own, how many mansions they have, etc. yet you whinge about paying too much tax. Spoiler alert: if they paid more tax (much smaller, as a percentage, than you do), you would not have to pay so much.

Tax from the rich that can't be collected is not going to reduce tax for anyone else. Labour tried it in the 1970s and it was a disaster, it's nothing but a soundbite to rile up the jealous in our society.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Just to clarify the 60% figure - are you stating that if you earned, say, £150k, you would have tax (including NI (employer & employee)) deductions of £90k?

https://www.unbiased.co.uk/discover/...gally-avoid-it

No, not exactly, as above it’s a stealth band.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

https://www.unbiased.co.uk/discover/...gally-avoid-it

No, not exactly, as above it’s a stealth band.

I'm already taking the pension contributions into consideration, but once you max out on the upper limit there's no savings.

The salary sacrifice option is not open to everyone to take advantage, if you are working via an umbrella company you are generally provided with a list of those that are approved and I found that many on the list I was provided did not offer salary sacrifice. The only option you have then is the pay the pension contributions after paying 40% or 45% tax and claiming it back at the end of the year from HMRC. However, you have still lost out because you have paid employee and employer NI on that money.

I fully expect Labour to remove the higher rates of tax relief on pension contributions, it will send out a message to their core voters that they are punishing the "rich".

[Hom3r]

I have nothing to hide so will happily carry and ID card.

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

They'll raise taxes in one way.


Screw the motorist, Their OK as they claim the money back and we pay for it.