Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

This 'proof' fallback position is lazy. We all know that the Civil Service pushed back against Brexit. It doesn't need me to trawl back through the reports from 2016 onwards.

In respect of Sue Gray being an example, you can easily imagine the coven of lefties that she led. Courtroom proof is impossible and this forum certainly doesn't need that standard of proof.,

I suppose you could argue the toss between 'lefties' and 'Europhiles' in the Civil Service but the balance of probability lies with Grauniad style lefties.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Hugh

How dare they?



https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...tain-transport

No problem as we can still drive around on our badly maintained but sovereign roads

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This 'proof' fallback position is lazy. We all know that the Civil Service pushed back against Brexit. It doesn't need me to trawl back through the reports from 2016 onwards.

In respect of Sue Gray being an example, you can easily imagine the coven of lefties that she led. Courtroom proof is impossible and this forum certainly doesn't need that standard of proof.,

I suppose you could argue the toss between 'lefties' and 'Europhiles' in the Civil Service but the balance of probability lies with Grauniad style lefties.

You could argue, but not in court, that providing no proof at all is a quite lazy position?

BTW, loving the selection from the playground lexicon so early in the day

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

No problem as we can still drive around on our badly maintained but sovereign roads

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------



You could argue, but not in court, that providing no proof at all is a quite lazy position?

BTW, loving the selection from the playground lexicon so early in the day

The Courts have nothing to do with opinion in this forum.
As I've said, everyone knows about the Brexit pushback from the Civil Service.

As for your sarcasm. it's late evening here in Canberra.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This 'proof' fallback position is lazy. We all know that the Civil Service pushed back against Brexit. It doesn't need me to trawl back through the reports from 2016 onwards.

In respect of Sue Gray being an example, you can easily imagine the coven of lefties that she led. Courtroom proof is impossible and this forum certainly doesn't need that standard of proof.,

I suppose you could argue the toss between 'lefties' and 'Europhiles' in the Civil Service but the balance of probability lies with Grauniad style lefties.

Imagine being the operative word.

https://www.gov.uk/government/people/sue-gray

The truth is Sue Gray will have had an extremely limited say in the people who work in the vast Departments she has served in.

To take just one example how did she thwart Brexit while on secondment to the Department of Finance in Northern Ireland? Did dozens, if not hundreds, of people all uproot their lives to go with her on her three year placement?

Or, more likely, did she just work with the people already in place, many of whom will have been there for years if not decades.

The evidence base for pushing back against Brexit would be worth a read if anyone could present it. Again it’s more likely that Ministers lacked the skills, knowledge or expertise required for their roles. Where limitations existed within the civil service it was official government position to remain, then leave with a deal, then leave without one. Working a shadow civil service against these positions would have been the textbook definition of insubordination.

With Parliament unable to agree and Johnson’s purge of anyone who backed remain we didn’t have a Government of all the talents we had one with none of the talents from the Conservative benches.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This 'proof' fallback position is lazy.

It's lazier not to provide proof than it is to provide it!

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

No problem as we can still drive around on our badly maintained but sovereign roads

Don't worry, our sovereign pot holes in London are being fixed as this will improve connectivity in the North. As even the Daily Mail reports,
Ministers mocked after boasting of using £235million taken from cancelling HS2 train line to fix roads in London ... and branding it part of a scheme to improve connectivity in the North

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's lazier not to provide proof than it is to provide it!

<SNIP>

Andrew, that the Civil Service is leftist is a well discussed topic, on which there are a variety of views and opinions. My opinion is that they are, by and large, leftist.

If Sue Gray, then why not others? Balance of probability.

All you difficult sods simply say "prove it" rather than debate it.

Originally posted by Sephiroth

There are two facts:

1. The Civil Service is generally leftist, of which Sue Gray is a leading example.

2. The current government is incompetent.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Andrew, that the Civil Service is leftist is a well discussed topic, on which there are a variety of views and opinions. My opinion is that they are, by and large, leftist.

If Sue Gray, then why not others? Balance of probability.

All you difficult sods simply say "prove it" rather than debate it.

You appear to have moved from "fact" to "opinion"…

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You appear to have moved from "fact" to "opinion"…

I welcome the move.

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Andrew, that the Civil Service is leftist is a well discussed topic, on which there are a variety of views and opinions. My opinion is that they are, by and large, leftist.

If Sue Gray, then why not others? Balance of probability.

All you difficult sods simply say "prove it" rather than debate it.

If you don't provide anything for people to discuss then the debate doesn't go anywhere.

There have been millions of civil servants employed since it was established. One civil servant getting a gig at the Labour Party can't be extrapolated to represent the views of most of those civil servants! That assumption would fail a GCSE Maths test!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Andrew, that the Civil Service is leftist is a well discussed topic, on which there are a variety of views and opinions. My opinion is that they are, by and large, leftist.

If Sue Gray, then why not others? Balance of probability.

All you difficult sods simply say "prove it" rather than debate it.

There are 489,000 civil servants - they aren't obliged to not have political views they're obliged to be impartial in their day to day duties. There's no reason to expect them to individually hold views materially different from the population as a whole, adjusted for working age and other demographics. There will be right wing and left wing civil servants working side by side.

Even still - it's not clear Sue Gray is an example of anything other than a rational person moving to a new job with better career prospects. It's not like she's volunteering on her own time to go round door knocking.

Jacques Delors has died aged 98.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67830106

I imagine the Sun is pleased.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Quote:
“There is no civil service activism, there is no civil service passive aggression, there is no separate civil service agenda. I saw no evidence of a small group of activists trying to undermine a minister. The issue is a minister’s behaviour.”
:

That’s what Lord McDonald thinks, not what Raab and many others in the government think. You completely missed my point, as usual.

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Nobody has disputed that the lazy trope is a CCHQ attack line that some are well versed in to deflect from Government incompetence or inadequacy. To find it referenced in an article where a Minister has been forced out in disgrace is unsurprising, perhaps even expected.

We've asked for evidence of it actually happening.

I said that is what many Conservatives think. You are again changing the thrust of the argument. Do your own research. I am not your slave or researcher.

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

One person leaving the Civil Service to work for a political party does not support the sweeping generalisation.

Civil servants are supposed to be politically neutral. This clearly shows that this principle no longer applies. Are you really trying to have us believe that this is an isolated example?

---------- Post added at 20:14 ---------- Previous post was at 20:13 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

1. No proof

2. Proof

Well, left wingers would say that, wouldn’t they?

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

No problem as we can still drive around on our badly maintained but sovereign roads

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------



You could argue, but not in court, that providing no proof at all is a quite lazy position?

BTW, loving the selection from the playground lexicon so early in the day

More often than not, the lefties on here provide links to support their strange view of the world.

When anyone questions this with a link of their own, the lefties complain about the source of the article. When they can’t do that because it’s a leftie source, they pick out an odd sentence or so in a desperate effort to rubbish the article. If that fails, they change the nature of the argument!

You’ve got to admit, this is pretty pathetic.

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Andrew, that the Civil Service is leftist is a well discussed topic, on which there are a variety of views and opinions. My opinion is that they are, by and large, leftist.

If Sue Gray, then why not others? Balance of probability.

All you difficult sods simply say "prove it" rather than debate it.

Spot on.

And look at all those wimps complaining that they have been ‘bullied’ by ministers for failing to do their jobs.

Left wing incompetents, all of them.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That’s what Lord McDonald thinks, not ' what Raab and many others in the government think. You completely missed my point, as usual.

At this point I’d hold Old McDonald’s opinion in higher esteem than Raab.

I said that is what many Conservatives think. You are again changing the thrust of the argument. Do your own research. I am not your slave or researcher.

Civil servants are supposed to be politically neutral. This clearly shows that this principle no longer applies. Are you really trying to have us believe that this is an isolated example?

Civil servants have to be impartial, not neutral.

For your benefit I link the Civil Service Code.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...l-service-code

I also link the pre-election guidance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...civil-servants

Well, left wingers would say that, wouldn’t they?

Well supporters of a failed Government would say that, wouldn’t they?

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Left wing incompetents, all of them.

Are you saying this or quoting someone else? Either way, evidence?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

More often than not, the lefties on here provide links to support their strange view of the world.

When anyone questions this with a link of their own, the lefties complain about the source of the article. When they can’t do that because it’s a leftie source, they pick out an odd sentence or so in a desperate effort to rubbish the article. If that fails, they change the nature of the argument!

You’ve got to admit, this is pretty pathetic.

In terms of a rant I agree the above is pretty pathetic. Paul, no leftie, asked you to provide a source to back up your allegations and guess what? You're equating such requests as akin to slavery!

It's time to get back to basics and provide a robust source or multiple sources that support your allegations or they and you will continue not to be taken seriously.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

In terms of a rant I agree the above is pretty pathetic. Paul, no leftie, asked you to provide a source to back up your allegations and guess what? You're equating such requests as akin to slavery!

It's time to get back to basics and provide a robust source or multiple sources that support your allegations or they and you will continue not to be taken seriously.

You lot pile in on OB just for the fun of it.


I don't rate you, Andrew, as a Leftie. But you do seem to like being part of the OB baiting crew.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You lot pile in on OB just for the fun of it.


I don't rate you, Andrew, as a Leftie. But you do seem to like being part of the OB baiting crew.

It's not about political belief or baiting, it's about encouraging good discussion in which controversial statements presented as facts should be linked to evidence.