Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Itshim

Does Spain show the the grass is greener on the other side. Left wing government likely to be right wing. UK right wing likely to be left wing ( in the broadest and most simplistic wording )

How do you define ‘right wing’? First in UK context; then in Spain context. We all know what ‘left wing’ is.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

How do you define ‘right wing’? First in UK context; then in Spain context. We all know what ‘left wing’ is.

Nah let’s all play dumb. What’s left wing?

I guess for completeness we need the “hard left” and “far right” if pedantry about labels is going to go on and on.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

How do you define ‘right wing’? First in UK context; then in Spain context. We all know what ‘left wing’ is.

How do you define "left wing"? First in the U.K. context; then in Spain context. We all know what "right wing" is.

(just reflecting back what you said - can you try to understand that just because you believe you know what "left wing" is, that view/definition/understanding/belief may not be homogenous with other peoples"

The challenge for most is that they base their understanding/definition from where they are standing - subjectively, not objectively; to a reasonably large number of Americans, the current Conservative Government is "left-wing", as it supports (mostly) Socialised Medicine, has re-nationalised some companies, support gun control, committed to Net Zero, etc., etc.

[Sephiroth]

@Hugh

I said “we all know what left wing is”. That has nothing to do with my subjective position.

The ‘right wing’ is a wider spectrum of political desires and practices. I’m merely trying to obtain a reference point for those who talk about ‘right wing’ in respect of our politics.

All you’re trying to do is be the contrary clever dick which doesn’t aid the conversation. We’ll be getting one of your stupid oversize pictures next.

[daveeb]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

@Hugh

I said “we all know what left wing is”. That has nothing to do with my subjective position.

The ‘right wing’ is a wider spectrum of political desires and practices. I’m merely trying to obtain a reference point for those who talk about ‘right wing’ in respect of our politics.

All you’re trying to do is be the contrary clever dick which doesn’t aid the conversation. We’ll be getting one of your stupid oversize pictures next.

Well a picture speaks a thousand words, I like stupid over size pictures. Beats daft blue writing IMO.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

@Hugh

I said “we all know what left wing is”. That has nothing to do with my subjective position.

The ‘right wing’ is a wider spectrum of political desires and practices. I’m merely trying to obtain a reference point for those who talk about ‘right wing’ in respect of our politics.

All you’re trying to do is be the contrary clever dick which doesn’t aid the conversation. We’ll be getting one of your stupid oversize pictures next.

Left wing is apparently a massive spectrum between thinking we shouldn’t pay companies that offshore billions in profits while they plough human excrement into our waterways all the way to the complete removal of all private property rights. It’s pure fantasy to present it as almost one single monolithic entity - although it suits those on the right to remove all the nuance around it to scaremonger.

The idea you could walk and be at your butcher, baker, grocer and GP within 15 minutes get pilloried as a global conspiracy to control everyone’s lives.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Left wing is apparently a massive spectrum between thinking we shouldn’t pay companies that offshore billions in profits while they plough human excrement into our waterways all the way to the complete removal of all private property rights. It’s pure fantasy to present it as almost one single monolithic entity - although it suits those on the right to remove all the nuance around it to scaremonger.

The idea you could walk and be at your butcher, baker, grocer and GP within 15 minutes get pilloried as a global conspiracy to control everyone’s lives.

The ‘left’ is indeed a large spectrum and we all understand what that spectrum is. As you move rightwards along that spectrum you reach a sort of middle ground that you might ascribe to the ‘leftist’ elements of the Conservative Party and its support for capitalism. As you move to the ‘right’, it becomes less defined. For example, the National Socialists: Extreme Right or what? Franco: Extreme Right or what? Moseley, Extreme Right, or what? What then is the ‘right wing’? Extreme Right?

So when the term ‘right wing’ is applied to argument here, where on the spectrum are the argues landing?

Seems to me that Leavers and Conservatives are being branded as ‘right wing’ without any form of definition by them.




---------- Post added at 16:54 ---------- Previous post was at 16:53 ----------

Btw, John,

You of all members understand the need for logic and definition.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

@Hugh

I said “we all know what left wing is”. That has nothing to do with my subjective position.

The ‘right wing’ is a wider spectrum of political desires and practices. I’m merely trying to obtain a reference point for those who talk about ‘right wing’ in respect of our politics.

All you’re trying to do is be the contrary clever dick which doesn’t aid the conversation. We’ll be getting one of your stupid oversize pictures next.

So this

The challenge for most is that they base their understanding/definition from where they are standing - subjectively, not objectively; to a reasonably large number of Americans, the current Conservative Government is "left-wing", as it supports (mostly) Socialised Medicine, has re-nationalised some companies, support gun control, committed to Net Zero, etc., etc.

isn’t contributing to the conversation?

I was pointing out that, whilst to most people in the U.K., the Conservatives are seen as "right wing", to other parts of the world, they are not (so much). The other challenge is that you seem to be aiming for a "one size fits all" definition, whilst in practice, this rarely works - most people tend to have a mixture of beliefs, which, depending on where you are looking from, vary on the spectrum of left to right wing; for instance, I’m quite fiscally conservative, but socially liberal (please note the small "c"and "l").

To my Scottish family, I am seen as quite "Conservative", but to you, I’m probably "left wing".

As I posted previously, it’s complicated…

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ts-complicated

Framing politics in terms of left-wing and right-wing might be simple for politicians, and comforting to activists, but it seems that these terms just aren’t that useful for talking about - or indeed to - the general public.

A new YouGov study reveals that the political wing spectrum is poorly understood and also that huge numbers of people don’t hold consistent left- and right-wing outlooks.

(Please note this is all before even getting into the argument about whether the left- and right-wing scale should be accompanied by an authoritarian/libertarian axis.)

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by Hugh

How do you define "left wing"? First in the U.K. context; then in Spain context. We all know what "right wing" is.

(just reflecting back what you said - can you try to understand that just because you believe you know what "left wing" is, that view/definition/understanding/belief may not be homogenous with other peoples"

The challenge for most is that they base their understanding/definition from where they are standing - subjectively, not objectively; to a reasonably large number of Americans, the current Conservative Government is "left-wing", as it supports (mostly) Socialised Medicine, has re-nationalised some companies, support gun control, committed to Net Zero, etc., etc.

The point I was trying to make is the mob in power is rubbish, let's elect the other, the poler opposite. Seems it is the grass is always greener. personally I blame Major for the mess Britain got in to with the EU . Or are you all to young to remember him!

Originally Posted by Itshim

The point I was trying to make is the mob in power is rubbish, let's elect the other, the poler opposite. Seems it is the grass is always greener. personally I blame Major for the mess Britain got in to with the EU . Or are you all to young to remember him!

Dude, I had lunch with Thatcher (twice) when I was Vice-Chairman of a Regional Young Conservatives area, and I’ve had social drinks with Sir John (my wife and I were pulled out of an audience by Jeffrey Archer to so), so, yes, some of us remember him*

*I was on the opposing team when he got elected, as I was a researcher for my MP, who was Heseltine’s PPS, but I still think he was a good PM.

[Sephiroth]

At last, Hugh has intellectually addressed the question he posed to me - possibly because I made an attempt to address that question too.

Although the political spectrum is generally poorly understood, imo, the concept of 'left' is generally well understood but the concept of 'right' is poorly understood, particularly by some lefties on this forum.

After all, this discussion is taking place in this forum and I'm still asking for a definition of 'right wing' in the eyes of those taking pot shots at me rather than answering the point.

When they've provided a definition (or definitions) we can compare them and then address what they are really saying.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

At last, Hugh has intellectually addressed the question he posed to me - possibly because I made an attempt to address that question too.

Although the political spectrum is generally poorly understood, imo, the concept of 'left' is generally well understood but the concept of 'right' is poorly understood, particularly by some lefties on this forum.

After all, this discussion is taking place in this forum and I'm still asking for a definition of 'right wing' in the eyes of those taking pot shots at me rather than answering the point.

When they've provided a definition (or definitions) we can compare them and then address what they are really saying.

I genuinely don’t think “left” is well understood to be honest. It mainly gets thrown around as an insult by people following the US model of recalibrating the “centre” to “centre-right”.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I genuinely don’t think “left” is well understood to be honest. It mainly gets thrown around as an insult by people following the US model of recalibrating the “centre” to “centre-right”.

I do think that 'left' is well understood in this forum But a lot of people seem to have trouble defining 'right wing' yet freely chuck the term around when expounding their credo.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I do think that 'left' is well understood in this forum But a lot of people seem to have trouble defining 'right wing' yet freely chuck the term around when expounding their credo.

I think you are conveniently conflating being consistently misunderstood and well understood to be fair. You are also dodging offering a definition despite it being “well understood”.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I do think that 'left' is well understood in this forum But a lot of people seem to have trouble defining 'right wing' yet freely chuck the term around when expounding their credo.

You keep stating that it’s ‘well understood" but never actually support that statement with any definition…

Or, to put it in your terms

I do think that 'right’ is well understood in this forum But a lot of people seem to have trouble defining 'leftie’' yet freely chuck the term around when expounding their credo.