Hamas Israel War

Originally Posted by jfman

No, but despicable support does.

Thats just about enough.
You are just as one sided as those members you keep attacking.

Several members here need to wind it in, or topic rests will be in order.
I'm fed up of reading this thread everyday and all I see is certain members attacking each other.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Speculative nonsense.

A wise man would not be quick to accept such claims from Hamas on their word.

If the IDF have bombed a hospital they should rightly be condemned and held accountable, but I’m disinclined to accept Hamas’ claims on face value. Because I know that generally they’re very trustworthy nice people, just trying to get along.

But I don’t think that staging the odd false flag attack and making accusations to stoke up tensions around everything is beyond them, in fact I’m pretty sure it’s part of their playbook.

Hamas value the lives of Palestinians arguably less than Israel.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

A wise man would not be quick to accept such claims from Hamas on their word.

If the IDF have bombed a hospital they should rightly be condemned and held accountable, but I’m disinclined to accept Hamas’ claims on face value. Because I know that generally they’re very trustworthy nice people, just trying to get along.

But I don’t think that staging the odd false flag attack and making accusations to stoke up tensions around everything is beyond them, in fact I’m pretty sure it’s part of their playbook.

Hamas value the lives of Palestinians arguably less than Israel.

It’s the same health ministry that’s been documenting casualties for over a week. That said, cynicism is probably warranted and I’ll be equally cynical of inevitable IDF denials since the optics are atrocious in particular with Biden in town.

An even wiser man suggested topic rests earlier, I’m sure things will be clearer tomorrow either way so I’m calling it a night.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Israel bombing hospitals and schools, who are the terrorists now?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...-east-67119233

Never mind Rishi us popping over to give them carte blanch to do whatever. Wonder why he doesn't want to be in the country on by election day?

Given there’s credible evidence of Hamas actively trying to prevent Gazans from escaping the areas Israel has advertised as targets, I am far from sanguine about taking Hamas’ word for it that Isreal has bombed a hospital. No matter how fired up for revenge Israel is I find it hard to believe they’d do this deliberately. On the other hand I think Hamas is more than capable of blowing up a hospital and then blaming Israel.

Military missiles do of course leave telltale debris behind - that’s how we first knew that Ukraine has begun using American ATACMS long range missiles. The debris is characteristic. If Israel did this then debris matching the magnitude of destruction will be found. Given the ubiquity of mobile phone cameras and CCTV, no doubt footage showing a detonation typical of an Israeli missile (as opposed to an IED loaded with low-explosive and gas canisters) is also likely to be found.

---------- Post added at 22:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

(Edit)

There is also the possibility of an accidental hit either by the IDF or Hamas. Plenty of video doing the rounds this evening supports the claim that an outbound Hamas rocket was responsible for this. Though I still believe Hamas is perfectly capable of doing this deliberately.

[OLD BOY]

I am hoping that the US has satellite images that show beyond any doubt where these rockets were fired from.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I am hoping that the US has satellite images that show beyond any doubt where these rockets were fired from.

They undoubtedly do, but declassifying and sharing those images is not straightforward. Often such output gives the game away with regards to the US’s ability to spy on whoever the satellite is flying over. They don’t want details of their precise capabilities out in the wild if they can help it.

[jfman]

The IDF are understandably going all in on a denial.

It’d have been helpful if some of their video footage wasn’t old and subsequently deleted from their own social media accounts, and if the time stamps matched the events. Similarly, one of Netanyahu’s digital comms people claimed it then quickly deleted which doesn’t help get facts out there when you have already got dubious credibility for attacking schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure. Equally warning the hospital to evacuate doesn’t sound like the actions of a military that doesn’t hit hospitals.

I would imagine at this point if America had anything useful to back Israel at this point they’d be publicly backing them instead. The usually complicit media just gave the IDF spokesperson a hard time which indicates none of them have had a nod to toe the line.

As predicted, daylight reveals a lot of fire and no crater. In other words, burning fuel from a failed terrorist rocket, not an IDF missile strike (big flash, even bigger crater, small fire).

Nevertheless, the nature of this conflict is that all sides will believe what they want to believe and act accordingly - c.f. Arab states blaming Israel with surprisingly indecent haste last night, even before any evidence, however contested, had been presented.

Here’s the key image circulating this morning. It’s from Quds News Network - Hamas sympathetic if not outright controlled. So no need for any breathless commentary about mismatched time-codes.

No crater.
Next to no building damage.
Obviously an extensive fire.

The most likely conclusion is that this was the result of a terrorist rocket that fell short. As we know, they don’t have large warheads and don’t cause a large amount of damage in and of themselves - except when they’re still carrying most of their propellant, in which case they do this.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

You’re wrong on all counts. Fatally so, for anyone in a position of diplomatic influence in these matters. Thankfully you aren’t (nor, I assume, is anyone else here, including me).

First, as I said, (and as you appeared to agree), if you start your examination when the guns start firing you will not understand why the guns are firing. You can’t understand WW2 from 1939 and you can’t understand Israel-Palestine from 1948.

Second, it was during the British mandate that Palestinian political consciousness was born. Prior to the inter-communal riots of the 1920s - which occurred under British rule and which the British Mandate authorities did little to address - the concept of Palestinian nationhood simply did not exist. That’s not to say the ethnic Arab inhabitants there had no aspirations to self-determination, but there was no politically driven, common Palestinian identity as there is today. The British influence in the very existence of the concept of Palestine as a national identity cannot be overlooked.

Third, again, under the British Mandate, Arabs were prevented from unifying effectively under their developing Palestinian identity because the British authorities actively worked to keep the various factions squabbling with each other. This was standard Empire tactics designed to make administration easier (basically, divide and rule). The British ruled by the issuing of patronage, in ways that were deliberately fuzzy around the edges. In Jerusalem, for example, civic and religious order were given to two rival factions. Jerusalem being what it always has been, that was always going to be a recipe for chaos.

Fourth, the Ottoman stuff is absolutely not irrelevant. Your dismissal of it in this way indicates that you actually don’t understand the Ottoman stuff at all. Perhaps if you prove me wrong by outlining *why* you think it’s irrelevant, I’ll respond by demonstrating why it absolutely is.

Remember, the Palestine-Israel conflict is never just about resolving the latest flare-up. It is the intractable search for a lasting peace in which two deeply opposed groups of people can learn to live side by side. Dismissing their mutual history - which you are so obviously doing, even while pretending you’re not - is exactly the way to ensure no such settlement occurs.

You are seriously over-thinking this. My starting point assumes the previous history and is perfectly adequate for leading up to where we are now. Btw, you didn't mention the Balfour Declaration of 1917, to which the UN gave effect in November 1947.

Your final sentence is utter rubbish. I've dismissed nothing - having merely started at a sensible point in history. Hamas wouldn't be able to recount the history you've added to mine.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are seriously over-thinking this. My starting point assumes the previous history and is perfectly adequate for leading up to where we are now. Btw, you didn't mention the Balfour Declaration of 1917, to which the UN gave effect in November 1947.

Your final sentence is utter rubbish. I've dismissed nothing - having merely started at a sensible point in history. Hamas wouldn't be able to recount the history you've added to mine.

You’re right, I didn’t mention Balfour. I didn’t mention a lot of stuff. But I’m not the one trying to cover a lack of knowledge of the subject by claiming what I have mentioned represents a lot of work and everything that’s relevant. To be honest your hot-take on Balfour suggests to me that you really don’t understand exactly what Balfour’s understanding of Zionism meant in terms of British foreign policy and how that affected the way Arabs responded to the proposed two-state solution in 1947-48. NB, the declaration itself is an inadequate basis for understanding. Feel free to Google his later clarification and get back to me.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

You’re right, I didn’t mention Balfour. I didn’t mention a lot of stuff. But I’m not the one trying to cover a lack of knowledge of the subject by claiming what I have mentioned represents a lot of work and everything that’s relevant. To be honest your hot-take on Balfour suggests to me that you really don’t understand exactly what Balfour’s understanding of Zionism meant in terms of British foreign policy and how that affected the way Arabs responded to the proposed two-state solution in 1947-48. NB, the declaration itself is an inadequate basis for understanding. Feel free to Google his later clarification and get back to me.

None of what you've said negates my starting point. But, more positively, forum members who want to know the preceding history now have it from you.

[spiderplant]

Originally Posted by Chris

Here’s the key image circulating this morning.
No crater.
Next to no building damage.
Obviously an extensive fire.

500 people didn't die in the area shown in that photo. So there is more to it than that.

As for the extent of the fire, bear in mind hospitals have large quantities of stored oxygen.

Originally Posted by spiderplant

500 people didn't die in the area shown in that photo. So there is more to it than that.

As for the extent of the fire, bear in mind hospitals have large quantities of stored oxygen.

At this point, how do we know that 500 people died? Isn’t it equally possible that there’s a whole lot *less* to it than that?

If there’s missile damage, i.e. a crater and extensive building damage, or even more fire damage accelerated by hospital oxygen, where’s the photos and videos of that? Why just circulate images of an incidental fire, if that’s all there is?

I appreciate you wanting to keep an open mind, but I do challenge your starting assumption here, which appears to be that the Hamas claims made last night are most likely to be true.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Chris

At this point, how do we know that 500 people died? Isn’t it equally possible that there’s a whole lot *less* to it than that?

If there’s missile damage, i.e. a crater and extensive building damage, or even more fire damage accelerated by hospital oxygen, where’s the photos and videos of that? Why just circulate images of an incidental fire, if that’s all there is?

I appreciate you wanting to keep an open mind, but I do challenge your starting assumption here, which appears to be that the Hamas claims made last night are most likely to be true.

There’s another option to be considered here also, apologies if it’s already been expressed

It was indeed a Hamas rocket that caused the damage, just not necessarily fired by Hamas rather fired by the iDF

Neither side are exactly bastions of the truth