The disgrace that is Rangers Football Club - Fans caught doing Nazi Salutes in Israel

[TheBlueRaja]

Originally Posted by Chris T

How, exactly, is 'flute music' at the start of a Rangers game any more provocative than Scottish international sports events using a folk song about a (very old) military victory over England as a quasi-anthem?

And the verse in God save the queen is?

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

National Anthem? Although lets not slurry the water with a separate discussion as this doesnt bother me that much.

But Flute music, flag parades, bigoted songs, Nazi Salutes.

Flute music on its own is not a major issue in my eyes, but put all the crap together and its obvious what the connotations are and why there is flute music in the first place.

I'm stunned people are attempting to defend this.

Wow. Is this just mob mentality or are these people absolute *******s? I bet many people attending the game had relatives who died in the holocaust. This is out of order.

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

And the verse in God save the queen is?

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

National Anthem?

Lets see Flute music, flag parades, bigoted songs, Nazi Salutes.

Flute music on its own is not a major issue in my eyes, but put all the crap together and its obvious what the connotations are and why there is flute music in the first place.

I'm stunned people are attempting to defend this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to defend Nazi salutes by anyone, anywhere. I'm just picking up on your wider point about sectarianism in Scottish football. The question I want to put is, where do you draw the line?

History is history. We can't change it but we can learn from it. I challenge you, for example, to document for me any occasion in the recent past when that verse of the national anthem has been used (by which I mean official occasion, not at a lunatic fringe meeting of the Home Rule for England Campaign). In fact, if you can show me a hymn or other song book currently in print that even includes that verse for use I would be extremely surprised.

The fact that there was once an anti-Scottish verse in the national anthem is as meaningless in current politics as the fact that William Wallace once went on a wrecking weekend in York. They are both simply historical curiosities that have no bearing on the present other than as a useful reminder that we don't need to do that sort of thing any more.

What is more interesting is how sectarianism and rivalry is currently expressed. Nobody sings 'Rebellious Scots to crush' any more, but they sing 'Send them homewards to think again' in their tens of thousands. It might be argued that the intended context is a sporting one but the SNP would certainly disagree with that idea, especially as they still have an annual jamboree at Bannockburn which includes a wistful rendition of Flower of Scotland.

The point is, how far do you allow groups of people to express their identity in terms of their origins and significant historical events, even at the expense of some mild offence on the part of those on the recieving end? Is the flute music and associated gubbins intended to incite, or is it simply a strong espression of tribal identity? Is Flower of Scotland intended to incite hatred of the English or is it simply the product of centuries of sibling rivalry?

Incidentally, and slightly off topic, Flower of Scotland doesn't get me mad, it just makes me a bit sad. I live in Scotland and I love it here and I think there are ten thousand positive Scottish things Scots could sing about, rather than choosing to define themselves by reference to England.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

Utter tripe.
I has absolutely feck all to do with the Red Hand of Ulster and they (you? - Notes where your from) know it,

I'd say its more to do with the red hand of Ulster than any Nazi connotations. Why display Israeli flags and then perform Nazi salutes? I know there are some real knuckle draggers amongst the rangers support but even they would see the irony in that.

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

Its a smokescreen for these feckwits to take the ****.

I'd agree there isn't any place for it in football but I don't think this was intended as a Nazi salute. Did anyone hear any chants of 'Sieg Heil' or similar accompanying it?

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

Ranger football club have done nothing about this over the years and ARE responsible for the actions of their fans - especially their travelling fans as any England fan should know.

Done nothing? So the fans banned from Ibrox etc. over the years are just unlucky. I suppose you also get the 'fans' who run onto the pitch and try to handcuff themselves to the goalposts. Rangers are at fault for that too I suppose.

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

You comment about Celtic holds true although i have to admit they are changing much faster then the Rangers camp.

Wouldn't agree with that. I haven't heard many announcers recently tell their fans not to respond to chants and songs from the away fans like there was at St. Mirren a few months back.

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

I noted your Strathclyde Police banner, perhaps if they paid more attention to the songs sung by the home fans, the flag parades and the salutes that they do at Ibrox instead of the away fans who get flung out for nothing that this would still be a problem.

Far, far, far less away fans get kicked out of Ibrox than home fans. A number of home fans are normally kicked out by stewards and have their season ticket revoked at each match. Short of playing behind closed doors what else would you want Rangers to do?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

And the verse in God save the queen is?

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

National Anthem? Although lets not slurry the water with a separate discussion as this doesnt bother me that much.

God save the King, she isn't that old

[TheBlueRaja]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Snippy..

I think the way to sum up that one is that i dont know off anyone who supports the SNP... Why bother when Scots run the country anyway?

And Derek S, if you really believe that when sections of your own support deny it (http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396) then there is nothing i can do.

However, you disgust me with that kind of bile.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

And Derek S, if you really believe that when sections of your own support deny it (http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396) then there is nothing i can do.

I believe it but I don't condone it. I've simply said it isn't a Nazi salute. I don't think there is any room for it in football.

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

However, you disgust me with that kind of bile.

Eh? What bile?

Originally Posted by Chris T

How, exactly, is 'flute music' at the start of a Rangers game any more provocative than Scottish international sports events using a folk song about a (very old) military victory over England as a quasi-anthem?

Possibly because the "flute music" is to remind everyone about the links to the Orange Order and the marches, which were (can't say are, as I have only made flying visits to Glasgow in the last couple of years) extremely sectarian and provocative, such as this.

I read a very amusing letter about the Orange Marchers in a paper a few years ago, and would like to share it with you -
"Yes! Let them march, Glasgow is never more pleasant then when those lovely colourful bigots brighten up everybodies day with their message of peace and unity. Theres nothing I like more than pushing my way through their adoring crowds of be-crutched, scarred, burly gentlemen wearing blue, white and red, exchanging pleasantries with you as you pass, enquiring about your education, religion, sexual preferences and sporting allegiancies.

If you are lucky they might even share their Buckfast with you, although for some reason they seem to think people drink with the top of their heads and the only way to get to the precious 'fast is to open it with said head.

I must also mention that waking up with a hangover on a Sunday morning to the sound of hate outside your window is particularly invigorating."

[TheBlueRaja]

Originally Posted by Derek S

Eh? What bile?

Ok, i'll spell it out for you.

You say its not a Nazi Salute, it looks like a Nazi Salute and thats the impression people get.

I know your angle, its a Red hand salute, well maybe, to some, it is.

But riddle me this, why fly all the way to Israel and stand there on the terracing giving a Red hand salute eh?

Why would they do that i wonder, to show their support for loyalists, in Israel? I dont think so, i think its FAR more likely that these embarassments to Scotland and the Scottish game decided to give Nazi Salutes and hide behind the fact that it was a "red hand salute".

I'll tell you what mate, believe what you want, spread your bile but your not fooling me.

The thing is, this is typical of the excuses fans of your club use as cover for spreading their hatred. Over and over you hear it, but the thing is mate, we all know the truth and its time something was done.

[ikthius]

God Bless the Glasgow Celtic

ok, I can agree with BR this sort of thing must stop.
But it will take time......

I have seen a major change in the attitudes of the old firm, only about 5-6 years ago, there was normally always a killing because of the old firm colours.

that has virtually stopped, and most of the time you never hear of the warring fans, it is virtually non existent in the main now.

but I do agree that certain fans will still want to show off a bit and, lets be honest, be stupid.

I think that image is shocking and Rangers (*cough*) should do something about it. Get tougher on the individuals, maybe even reward people who grass them (the real culprits who are found to be in the wrong as in chanting banned songs, flinging coins, racist remarks or salutes) in, by giving such loyal fans merchandise like a free scarf.....

not just them but all teams.

ik

[gazzae]

LOL Red Hand Salute. Nazi salute if I ever saw one.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

Why would they do that i wonder, to show their support for loyalists, in Israel? I dont think so, i think its FAR more likely that these embarassments to Scotland and the Scottish game decided to give Nazi Salutes and hide behind the fact that it was a "red hand salute".

Why do Celtic fans sing about Ireland and the potato famine when they are away?
Why do Falkirk sing about.... errrrr.... I dunno farming or their wheel or whatever they sing about when they go to away games.
It's what football fans do. Rangers fans (a minority and a shrinking one) do it at Ibrox as well. And I've yet to see a swastika being displayed inside Ibrox.

Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja

its time something was done.

Agreed. And things are being done. And it isn't just Rangers. Certainly I'd say it is more of a problem for the West of Scotland but it isn't just Rangers.

[TheBlueRaja]

Yet again UEFA show how gutless they are, say they accept Rangers explanation that its a red hand salute.

Originally Posted by BBC

Rangers have again urged fans not to make red hand of Ulster salutes, despite avoiding a Uefa probe into a complaint by an anti-racism group.

It followed newspaper photographs suggesting Nazi-style gestures during their match against Hapoel Tel-Aviv.

Uefa has accepted Rangers' explanation that such salutes related to the red hand on the Ulster flag.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...rs/6383691.stm

A bloody disgrace.

Here's a handy link LoyalistFM with their explanation of the "Red Hand Salute".

"“Ahh, but its no a Nazi salute, it’s the red hand salute”
No its not, the red hand salute is non existent, and it pains me to say it, but the red hand salute is merely a symbol which fans embarrassingly hid behind to condone the support of Neo-Nazis within Britain’s shore. It's first appearance at Ibrox (I believe) in the 80's, coinciding with the introductionof the extreme right wing "Chelsea bootboys'" unofficial friendship with Rangers."

[TheBlueRaja]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Here's a handy link LoyalistFM with their explanation of the "Red Hand Salute".

"“Ahh, but its no a Nazi salute, it’s the red hand salute�
No its not, the red hand salute is non existent, and it pains me to say it, but the red hand salute is merely a symbol which fans embarrassingly hid behind to condone the support of Neo-Nazis within Britain’s shore. It's first appearance at Ibrox (I believe) in the 80's, coinciding with the introductionof the extreme right wing "Chelsea bootboys'" unofficial friendship with Rangers."

I have already posted that link twice in this thread...

Which only points out how wrong UEFA are and how Rangers FC have managed to get away with it again.

What sort of message is this?