Russia has invaded Ukraine

[jfman]

Seems like quite the human sacrifice (plus the ongoing disruption to the lives of millions of refugees) just to, perhaps unnecessarily, align with western objectives and hope one day they’ll suitably arm you to make progress.

Although I recognise this conversation is somewhat circuitous, I can’t really rationalise the 2022 borders plus Crimea ambition that others do in the absence of any political will to support it from their allies. The final months of the conflict are here one way or the other. A few decent graphics and blind hope won’t change that.

If Netanyahu adds Lebanon to the war crimes being committed in Gaza then Zelensky’s begging bowl goes empty.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

What kind of peace do you get in a perpetual state of war? Or worse, if you’re a dead Ukrainian conscript?

What kind of peace do you get if Russia just ignores everything the've agreed to? When do you know you actually have peace.

Do you really trust Russia? What will you think if a large number of North Korean engineers appear in Donbass region?

If a test on reaction of the West and no response, does it mean North Korean troops may appear in the future under the defence agrreement between Russia and NK recently signed?

How much do you trust Russia and Putin?

Originally Posted by jfman

Seems like quite the human sacrifice (plus the ongoing disruption to the lives of millions of refugees) just to, perhaps unnecessarily, align with western objectives and hope one day they’ll suitably arm you to make progress.

Although I recognise this conversation is somewhat circuitous, I can’t really rationalise the 2022 borders plus Crimea ambition that others do in the absence of any political will to support it from their allies. The final months of the conflict are here one way or the other. A few decent graphics and blind hope won’t change that.

Is Ukraine fighting in order to align itself with Western objectives? Or is it fighting because a neighbouring state has invaded and ravaged its sovereign territory?

The question is rhetorical of course - I’m sure even you are well aware you’re putting the cart before the horse here.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

What kind of peace do you get if Russia just ignores everything the've agreed to? When do you know you actually have peace.

Do you really trust Russia? What will you think if a large number of North Korean engineers appear in Donbass region?

If a test on reaction of the West and no response, does it mean North Korean troops may appear in the future under the defence agrreement between Russia and NK recently signed?

How much do you trust Russia and Putin?

I’m not really sure the relevance of my own opinions to any of the questions above. The pertinent questions are Ukrainian capability and Western political will. Both of which are diminishing.

If North Koreans wind up on the front line it won’t really be hugely different from the US assets supporting Ukrainian attacks on Russian civilians in Crimea.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not really sure the relevance of my own opinions to any of the questions above. The pertinent questions are Ukrainian capability and Western political will. Both of which are diminishing.

If North Koreans wind up on the front line it won’t really be hugely different from the US assets supporting Ukrainian attacks on Russian civilians in Crimea.

Whoa vatnik name one case of Ukrainian attack on Russian civilians in Crimea!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Whoa vatnik name one case of Ukrainian attack on Russian civilians in Crimea!

Spare me the insults. Civilians have absolutely died in missile attacks on Crimea, American missiles with American logistical support.

If you deny the people living in Crimea, or perhaps all ethnic Russians, civilian status in your own fantasist mind that’s up to you. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Chris

The reality is, Ukraine has been in a perpetual state of war since Russia invaded the Donbas and then Crimea in 2014. It has simply got rather hotter since 2022.

so we only get interested when things get a bit
“hotter”.

Maybe if we had done something when things were a bit “cooler”, we wouldn’t be where we are.

We all seemed quite content in letting the Donbas and Crimea go.

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------

Originally Posted by pip08456

Whoa vatnik name one case of Ukrainian attack on Russian civilians in Crimea!

They were certainly a bit careless in Sevastopol a few days ago.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not really sure the relevance of my own opinions to any of the questions above. The pertinent questions are Ukrainian capability and Western political will. Both of which are diminishing.

If North Koreans wind up on the front line it won’t really be hugely different from the US assets supporting Ukrainian attacks on Russian civilians in Crimea.

Sorry vatnik, you're not off the hook. You name one attack on civilians. Just one! by Ukraine and I will be able to name hundreds by Russia.

You think vatnik is an insult, fair enough convince me you're not and I will gladly withdraw it.
Until you find that one example you will remain a vatnik.

Or

You could withdraw this untruthful comment. "US assets supporting Ukrainian attacks on Russian civilians in Crimea."

Post evidence or admit you are a vatnik and a liar.

---------- Post added at 21:35 ---------- Previous post was at 21:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

so we only get interested when things get a bit
“hotter”.

Maybe if we had done something when things were a bit “cooler”, we wouldn’t be where we are.

We all seemed quite content in letting the Donbas and Crimea go.

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------



They were certainly a bit careless in Sevastopol a few days ago.

Why so? Are you referring to the ATACM that was downed by Russian air defence?

BTW the opinion of Russian senator, former ambassador to NATO and former head of the Russian space agency Rogozin.



Still think there is any chance of peace with this leftover of the Golden Horde?

Originally Posted by Pierre

so we only get interested when things get a bit
“hotter”.

Maybe if we had done something when things were a bit “cooler”, we wouldn’t be where we are.

We all seemed quite content in letting the Donbas and Crimea go.

We should have. But we were too interested in deluding ourselves that Russia would stop at Crimea. Anyone who has bothered to listen to what Putin himself says about Russia, its history and its legitimate sphere of influence could have seen that was unlikely. Sadly only the Ukrainians and select other Eastern Europeans were listening, and warning, and we weren’t for listening.

They were certainly a bit careless in Sevastopol a few days ago.

The impact pattern in the widely circulated video is not what you get from a cluster munition on impact. I’ve seen far more videos than I’d like, of what they do when they do land and explode as designed. It is widely dispersed and.looks like debris impact, either from a failed interceptor, or pieces of a missile successfully intercepted. The fact that some of the impacts appear to explode suggests it was an intercepted missile.

Crimea is a war zone, its many Russian military installations under regular bombardment for many months. Russian civilians sunbathing in a war zone is odd. I certainly wouldn’t do it. I don’t imagine many of them will in future. Not when they’ve seen their military is willing to conduct missile interceptions right above their sun beds.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Why so? Are you referring to the ATACM that was downed by Russian air defence?

I am.

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:39 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Crimea is a war zone, its many Russian military installations under regular bombardment for many months. Russian civilians sunbathing in a war zone is odd. I certainly wouldn’t do it. .

It certainly is a war zone and Ukraine ordnance, intentionally or not, can kill innocent civilians as much as Russian ordnance.

In regards to the sunbathing civilians:

Were they Russian? Or occupied Ukrainians?

Originally Posted by Pierre

I am.

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:39 ----------



It certainly is a war zone and Ukraine ordnance, intentionally or not, can kill innocent civilians as much as Russian ordnance.

In regards to the sunbathing civilians:

Were they Russian? Or occupied Ukrainians?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ean-beach.html

Terrifying new video shows moment panic-stricken Russian tourists run for their lives as 'shrapnel from downed Ukrainian ATACMS missile' falls over crowded Crimean beach

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ean-beach.html

Struggling to see your point, spell it out to me like I’m 10yrs old.

---------- Post added at 00:31 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ean-beach.html

Where in that story is it confirmed that they are Russian nationals?

I ask again are they Russian nationals living in Crimea? Or occupied Ukrainians?

Is the paper is calling Crimean citizens Russian? …

Originally Posted by Pierre

It certainly is a war zone and Ukraine ordnance, intentionally or not, can kill innocent civilians as much as Russian ordnance.

In regards to the sunbathing civilians:

Were they Russian? Or occupied Ukrainians?

Impossible to say with any certainty, however plenty of images in recent weeks have shown tourist areas generally to be deserted. I suspect the locals, being well aware of what’s really going on, are staying well away. Meanwhile, in Russia, there is much propaganda telling Russians who traditionally like to spend their vacation on the Black Sea coast that Crimea is still lovely at this time of year. So if I were to play the odds I’d say they were Russians.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Sorry vatnik?

I'm not entertaining your nonsense while you open with insults. Everyone else knows what I'm referring to, and it just makes you look childish.

Point away at Russian attacks as you wish. It's irrelevant to the point.

US assets are absolutely supporting Ukrainian attacks on Russian civilians in Crimea. If you view North Koreans marching to the front line to put more Ukrainian conscripts in the meat grinder differently that's likely a function of your own delusion at best or outright racism at worst.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

I'm not entertaining your nonsense while you open with insults. Everyone else knows what I'm referring to, and it just makes you look childish.

Point away at Russian attacks as you wish. It's irrelevant to the point.

US assets are absolutely supporting Ukrainian attacks on Russian civilians in Crimea. If you view North Koreans marching to the front line to put more Ukrainian conscripts in the meat grinder differently that's likely a function of your own delusion at best or outright racism at worst.

Once again, name one, just one Ukrainian attack on Russian civilians in Crimea.

Until you can I continue to call you a vatnik as you push Kremlin misinfo and repeat thier lies. Should be easy for you to do if as you say it has happened more than once.