Hamas Israel War

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chris

Civilised nation states do not fight war crimes by designing war crimes into their battle plans.

Yes, the Israel-Palestine conflict is difficult. Far more difficult than most people realise, given the tendency to appeal to two fixed points in history (either 1967 or 1948) which tend to simplify the issue beyond reason. But it is troubling that you choose to use a phrase like ‘erase from the map’ - quite aside from the fact that this is the language of genocide (and is what Iran has said it would like to do to Israel), it’s also the language of geography. You say ‘Hamas’, but do you truly hold a correct distinction between ‘Hamas’ and ‘Gaza’ or ‘Palestine’?

The laws of war, as defined in treaties Israel is signatory to, recognise the inevitability of civilian casualties in armed conflict. They also demand these be minimised. It is far from clear that Israel is doing anything to minimise civilian casualties in Gaza.

That’s not my words, Chris! This is just denial on your part.

Hamas will not be content until Israel is no longer occupied by the Israelis, and Israel has every right to defend itself. To do so, it does need to take out Hamas. If it doesn’t the daily rocket attacks continue and both random and planned terror attacks will take place periodically. How do you propose that Israel deal with Hamas when they embed themselves amongst civilians for whatever reason?

There are bound to be inadvertent casualties - collateral damage as they say in the business - and as long as Israel do what they can to protect citizens while attending to the matter at hand, they will not be in breach of international law.

Why do you expect Israel to comply with every nicety of civilisation when the other side plays as dirty as it gets? This is a totally unrealistic expectation.

I do think, however, that there needs to be an investigation as to who killed those people trying to escape the area. That is very concerning, and I hope it wasn’t Israel. Hamas are not averse to blowing up their own people and blaming it on Israel. They have form. And of course, they are telling their own people not to leave, which puts them in harm’s way. That is on Hamas.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It’s part of the act of wearing down the enemy, Andrew. I don’t like war full stop and wish everyone could live in peace, but we are all having to live in the world of reality.

It's called a war crime, Old Boy and I'm disappointed to see you condoning collective punishment. It's also counter-productive as it acts as a recruiter for Hamas and reduces the goodwill for Israel internationally.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I don't think many of you have considered how difficult it is to live in a region where you are surrounded by beligerence and hostility.

Said completely without irony.

You are the man who said people would rise up here if anyone threatened to reopen negotiations on a trade settlement.

How will your average Palestinian teenager, who now hasn’t been at school for over a week, evacuated from their home now destroyed, that now has absolutely nothing thanks to Israel, potentially dead family members, react when an Iranian hands them a few hundred dollars and a gun in ten years time?

None of them will thank the United States for putting two battle groups offshore to permit it, that’s for certain. Nor will they see any comfort in the 2006 Palestinian election results.

There’s a fault in the British mindset where it’s so clouded by its own colonial history it simply cannot comprehend the rights of the colonised to live with freedom, dignity and respect. And their right to fight for that cause.

(Note to avoid any doubt: that final sentence doesn’t condone terror attacks on cilivians as distinct from state apparatus)

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That’s not my words, Chris! This is just denial on your part.

Those words are literally in your post.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Those codemning Israel have plenty to say whenever Israel fights back, but never seem to understand the plain fact that Hamas wants to erase Israel from the map and its people with it.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Maggy

I condemn both sides and you still make out that I'm partisan?You have no basic understanding of plain English apparently or you are just blinkered in your world view.

---------- Post added at 08:35 ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 ----------



I supported Israel for years BUT in the last 5 years I have been appalled by their behaviour in regards to their neighbours. I have no love for ANY terrorist organisation least of all Hamas.I dislike every single person who would support them. THE ONLY PEOPLE I SUPPORT IN THIS SITUATION are those who are who are just ordinary people who cannot escape the power hungry terrorist groups and the big bad wolf on their border who have persuaded the entire western world that they are the saints in this situation.You be fooled if you want I'm not.

Israel have gotten away with being bullies for too long especially under Benjamin Netanyahu.

The then belligerent neighbours (Egypt, Jordan, Syria) play heavily into this; the partitions are a direct result of that belligerence. Israel has had to build its defences into a formidable force and even then, as Hamas has shown it isn't enough.

The barbarism of Hamas cannot be set against Israel's bad behaviour in relation to the settlements.

Tell me, what should Israel do? Hamas and Hezbollah (and Iran) want the Jews to be exterminated or removed from their country.

For what my opinion is worth, you should separate your criticism of Israel's (bad) settlement incursion policy from the absolute barbarism of Hamas. Otherwise you come across as saying that Israel had this coming to them.




---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Said completely without irony.

You are the man who said people would rise up here if anyone threatened to reopen negotiations on a trade settlement.

How will your average Palestinian teenager, who now hasn’t been at school for over a week, evacuated from their home now destroyed, that now has absolutely nothing thanks to Israel, potentially dead family members, react when an Iranian hands them a few hundred dollars and a gun in ten years time?

None of them will thank the United States for putting two battle groups offshore to permit it, that’s for certain. Nor will they see any comfort in the 2006 Palestinian election results.

There’s a fault in the British mindset where it’s so clouded by its own colonial history it simply cannot comprehend the rights of the colonised to live with freedom, dignity and respect. And their right to fight for that cause.

(Note to avoid any doubt: that final sentence doesn’t condone terror attacks on cilivians as distinct from state apparatus)

Nah, John - not this time.

The general British mindset never thinks about our colonial past - even when it's rammed down our throats by the wokerati and fellow travellers seeking "compensation" for the aid money trousered by their current rulers.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Nah, John - not this time.

The general British mindset never thinks about our colonial past - even when it's rammed down our throats by the wokerati and fellow travellers seeking "compensation" for the aid money trousered by their current rulers.

I didn’t suggest it was a conscious thought, only that it was an inability to comprehend events from the other side. It can’t align with experiences it’s own history hasn’t experienced.

It can more readily align with suppressing such opposition. It’s in the national psyche so much it’s referenced in the national anthem.

Even today we have our armed forces minister, just as we had our foreign secretary yesterday, providing political cover for Israel by failing to condemn what we can see with our very eyes.

At best China is establishing moral authority outside Europe and North America and at worst Iran in the Middle East and North Africa. Simply because they can tell the truth.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

fight fire with fire .

My grandad used to say this..........that's why he was sacked by West Yorkshire Fire Service.

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

Originally Posted by Ms NTL

The Guardian will not publish any further cartoons from Steve Bell....

This will truly save lives.

[Ms NTL]

Originally Posted by Pierre

If I was Israel, I would completely destroy Gaza, just flatten it.

I know that’s what Hamas want, but i would give it to them in spades.

Give them 24hrs warning, then flatten it.

You can say this. Steve Bell is silenced.

[jfman]

I’m sure Lozza, Nige and the free speech brigade will be out there any minute campaigning for him to be reinstated.

Speaking of which where’s the “all lives matter” lot?

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Nah, John - not this time.

The general British mindset never thinks about our colonial past - even when it's rammed down our throats by the wokerati and fellow travellers seeking "compensation" for the aid money trousered by their current rulers.

You have demonstrated this repeatedly in the course of this discussion by pretending the problems began in 1948. I’d be interested to hear your take on how the British Mandate (1920-1948) contributed to the failure of the proposed two-state arrangement from the very outset.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Those words are literally in your post.

You guys seem to want to deliberately misunderstand everything.

When I said that, I was quoting what Hamas have already claimed. That’s what I meant, and you must know that.

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I didn’t suggest it was a conscious thought, only that it was an inability to comprehend events from the other side. It can’t align with experiences it’s own history hasn’t experienced.

It can more readily align with suppressing such opposition. It’s in the national psyche so much it’s referenced in the national anthem.

Even today we have our armed forces minister, just as we had our foreign secretary yesterday, providing political cover for Israel by failing to condemn what we can see with our very eyes.

At best China is establishing moral authority outside Europe and North America and at worst Iran in the Middle East and North Africa. Simply because they can tell the truth.

My God, jfman, you are a sad case. You totally omit to take account of Hamas’s actions, mindset and refusal to engage in peace talks.

The problem is not the West when it comes to trying to resolve these problems and your persistent refusal to acknowledge this is disingenuous to say the least.

Colonialism! What utter rubbish you do talk. Only the extreme left wing nuts are obsessed with colonialism.

[jfman]

OB I will absolutely not be called a sad case off someone whose most meaningful insight - among the shifting of goalposts - to date is that families in Gaza can “suck on that”.

International law doesn’t only apply in some circumstances it applies in all circumstances. If we can’t stand by that principle why should Putin, Xi, Assad, or today’s Palestinian teenagers offered guns and money off Iran in ten years time?

Biden visiting on Wednesday (I think still a rumour) suggests the penny is finally dropping.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You guys seem to want to deliberately misunderstand everything.

When I said that, I was quoting what Hamas have already claimed. That’s what I meant, and you must know that.

If everybody is misunderstanding you, I suggest the fault is more likely to be at your end.

The remedy is quite simple. If you are indeed quoting someone, put their actual words in quotation marks and include a link to the source.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Biden visiting on Wednesday (I think still a rumour) suggests the penny is finally dropping.

Interesting piece in the FT about the US approach.

But the best chance of mitigating the suffering of Palestinian civilians is to start from an understanding that Israel itself has just suffered an unprecedented tragedy and has the right and obligation to ensure its own security. This is a policy that one senior US official calls: “hug them close”. He describes Israel as “traumatised and frightened”. “We need to present this as a situation that we are facing together and that we can work on together,” says the official.

The White House thinks that only then will Joe Biden get a hearing when he makes public statements about the need for Israel to respect the laws of war and to protect civilian lives. In private, politicians can then press Israel about the most urgent humanitarian priorities, such as the restoration of electricity and water in Gaza.

That approach reflects a realistic understanding of Israeli society. The Jewish state is founded on the premise that antisemitism is global and ineradicable — and that no one will save the Jews except the Jews themselves. If, at this traumatic moment, foreigners arrive in Israel with lectures rather than deep and genuine sympathy they will not be listened to. The Israeli government and wider society will simply be confirmed in their view that they need to shut out the voices from a hostile world — and concentrate on the battle for their own survival.

https://www.ft.com/content/e0a6da0f-...2-92f2b578febf

[jfman]

So when they said after World War 2 “never again” they presumably silently said “to us” afterwards.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I didn’t suggest it was a conscious thought, only that it was an inability to comprehend events from the other side. It can’t align with experiences it’s own history hasn’t experienced.

It can more readily align with suppressing such opposition. It’s in the national psyche so much it’s referenced in the national anthem.

Even today we have our armed forces minister, just as we had our foreign secretary yesterday, providing political cover for Israel by failing to condemn what we can see with our very eyes.

At best China is establishing moral authority outside Europe and North America and at worst Iran in the Middle East and North Africa. Simply because they can tell the truth.

]I didn’t suggest it was a conscious thought, only that it was an inability to comprehend events from the other side. It can’t align with experiences it’s own history hasn’t experienced.

The reasonable inference one would draw suggests otherwise. An "inability to comprehend events from the other side" does not draw from consciousness of our colonial past.

It can more readily align with suppressing such opposition. It’s in the national psyche so much it’s referenced in the national anthem.

Which verse? Nobody knows beyond the first verse - consciously or sub-consciously).

At best China is establishing moral authority outside Europe and North America and at worst Iran in the Middle East and North Africa. Simply because they can tell the truth

Are you serious? China & Iran tell the truth?