Russia has invaded Ukraine

[Jaymoss]

There is a Russian side to the story that I am starting to see trickle through (without me going looking) Like how the democratic government of Ukraine was over thrown 2014 and the current leadership simply a puppet for right wing overlords. On top of that severe racist mistreatment of Russians promoted by said leaders.

Not expressing any opinion but like I said right from the start we are seeing a hell of a lot of anti Russian propaganda and I personally have been treating all the news on it pretty much as such

2 sides to every story and war I guess and we are only hearing one side

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

in fact if you look Ukraine has been incredibly unstable for a very long time

None of Ukraine’s difficulties over the past 20 years compare to being invaded by a despot and having their civilian population raped and then shot dead.

‘Putin the Russian nationalist with justifiable concerns that must be taken account of’ is the line the FSB has been dripping in to western media for years, precisely so that we would be minded to let him get on with it. The view you’re expressing is perilously close to Neville Chamberlain’s argument that it was reasonable for Hitler to invade the Sudetenland (which was sovereign Czechoslovakian territory) because its inhabitants were German-speaking.

Hitler took Chamberlain’s appeasement for the weakness that it was, and he therefore didn’t stop with the Sudetenland. Chamberlain ultimately only declared war because the UK was treaty-bound to come to Poland’s aid, and he continued to argue for a negotiated peace with Hitler until after Dunkirk, by which time Churchill was PM and insisting on continuing the fight (and Chamberlain was at death’s door with cancer).

Decades of accommodating Putin’s world view has brought us here. Ukraine is a sovereign, independent country, recognised by the United Nations and not under censure by any resolution. There really are not two sides to this - Russia’s ‘side’ is a chimera, the work of years of propaganda aimed at people who like to think they’re free thinking and even handed.

Don’t do the FSB’s work for it.

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

There is a Russian side to the story that I am starting to see trickle through (without me going looking) Like how the democratic government of Ukraine was over thrown 2014 and the current leadership simply a puppet for right wing overlords. On top of that severe racist mistreatment of Russians promoted by said leaders.

Not expressing any opinion but like I said right from the start we are seeing a hell of a lot of anti Russian propaganda and I personally have been treating all the news on it pretty much as such

2 sides to every story and war I guess and we are only hearing one side

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

in fact if you look Ukraine has been incredibly unstable for a very long time

There may be two sides to every story, but when one of those sides repeatedly invades and illegally seizes land from another country and sets up puppet regimes, perhaps it's salient not to fully not trust that side's story...

You may find this of interest - it's from Al Jazeera, not renowned for it's pro-Western bias.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...ndence-in-1991

2013
Yanukovich’s government suspends trade and association talks with the EU in November and opts to revive economic ties with Moscow, triggering months of mass rallies in Kyiv.

2014
The protests, largely focused around Kyiv’s Maidan square, turn violent. Dozens of protesters are killed.

In February, parliament votes to remove Yanukovich, who flees. Within days, armed men seize the parliament of the Ukrainian region of Crimea and raise the Russian flag.

Moscow annexes the territory after a March 16 referendum which shows overwhelming support in Crimea for joining the Russian Federation.

In April, pro-Russian separatists in the eastern region of Donbas declare independence. Fighting breaks out and has continued sporadically, despite frequent ceasefires, into 2022.

In May, businessman Petro Poroshenko wins a presidential election with a pro-Western agenda.

In July, a missile brings down passenger plane MH17 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, killing all 298 people on board. The weapon used is traced back by investigators to Russia, which denies involvement.

2017
An association agreement between Ukraine and the EU is passed, opening markets for free trade of goods and services, and visa-free travel to the EU for Ukrainians.

2019
A new Ukrainian Orthodox church wins formal recognition, angering the Kremlin.

Former actor and comedian Volodymyr Zelenskyy defeats Poroshenko in an April presidential election, promising to tackle corruption and end the simmering conflict in eastern Ukraine. His Servant of the People party wins a July parliamentary election.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Hugh

There may be two sides to every story, but when one of those sides repeatedly invades and illegally seizes land from another country and sets up puppet regimes, perhaps it's salient not to fully not trust that side's story...

You may find this of interest - it's from Al Jazeera, not renowned for it's pro-Western bias.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...ndence-in-1991

I had to get as far as Al Jazeera to realise you didn’t mean the Americans.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Hugh

There may be two sides to every story, but when one of those sides repeatedly invades and illegally seizes land from another country and sets up puppet regimes, perhaps it's salient not to fully not trust that side's story...

You may find this of interest - it's from Al Jazeera, not renowned for it's pro-Western bias.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...ndence-in-1991

Is it salient to trust either sides story though?

As I said anyway I have no opinion on it just do not believe everything I read from both sides

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

None of Ukraine’s difficulties over the past 20 years compare to being invaded by a despot and having their civilian population raped and then shot dead.

‘Putin the Russian nationalist with justifiable concerns that must be taken account of’ is the line the FSB has been dripping in to western media for years, precisely so that we would be minded to let him get on with it. The view you’re expressing is perilously close to Neville Chamberlain’s argument that it was reasonable for Hitler to invade the Sudetenland (which was sovereign Czechoslovakian territory) because its inhabitants were German-speaking.

Hitler took Chamberlain’s appeasement for the weakness that it was, and he therefore didn’t stop with the Sudetenland. Chamberlain ultimately only declared war because the UK was treaty-bound to come to Poland’s aid, and he continued to argue for a negotiated peace with Hitler until after Dunkirk, by which time Churchill was PM and insisting on continuing the fight (and Chamberlain was at death’s door with cancer).

Decades of accommodating Putin’s world view has brought us here. Ukraine is a sovereign, independent country, recognised by the United Nations and not under censure by any resolution. There really are not two sides to this - Russia’s ‘side’ is a chimera, the work of years of propaganda aimed at people who like to think they’re free thinking and even handed.

Don’t do the FSB’s work for it.

I am not going to say that is not happening I am simply going to say I am not going to believe it just because we are being told it

You really truly think what we are getting fed is not propaganda also? seriously?

Problem with sitting on the fence is that the Russians will probably annex it…

Look at what has happened so far - if Russia just wanted to ‘protect Russian speakers’, why are they flattening the towns they live in? Why did they try to take Kyiv?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Is it salient to trust either sides story though?

As I said anyway I have no opinion on it just do not believe everything I read from both sides

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------



I am not going to say that is not happening I am simply going to say I am not going to believe it just because we are being told it

You really truly think what we are getting fed is not propaganda also? seriously?

That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take.

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

I am not going to say that is not happening I am simply going to say I am not going to believe it just because we are being told it

You really truly think what we are getting fed is not propaganda also? seriously?

With propaganda then look at how it's actually pretty difficult for Russia to effectively enforce it in their home country. They've had to kick out or shut down independent stations and block social networks. If Russia were so confident in their 'side' they would not need to be doing this.

You might have a point that we're being fed propaganda too but it's not just the U.K media here is it? You have the United States as well. If you think they're in cahoots then look at the media from Europe. Hugh has linked you to Al Jazeera. This is a pretty broad amount of reporting from countries that aren't all geopolitically aligned.

What happened in 2014 is well-documented by several independent outlets which you can go read. There are also explanations of the 'Nazi problem' in Ukraine in Western outlets.

And so yes you can say you don't believe everything you read but I don't really see how that gets us anywhere. That could be said of 95% of the things that are happening in this world. At some point you're allowed to believe something to be true, it's not ruling out what you understand to be true can change when giving new information.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Damien

With propaganda then look at how it's actually pretty difficult for Russia to effectively enforce it in their home country. They've had to kick out or shut down independent stations and block social networks. If Russia were so confident in their 'side' they would not need to be doing this.

You might have a point that we're being fed propaganda too but it's not just the U.K media here is it? You have the United States as well. If you think they're in cahoots then look at the media from Europe. Hugh has linked you to Al Jazeera. This is a pretty broad amount of reporting from countries that aren't all geopolitically aligned.

What happened in 2014 is well-documented by several independent outlets which you can go read. There are also explanations of the 'Nazi problem' in Ukraine in Western outlets.

And so yes you can say you don't believe everything you read but I don't really see how that gets us anywhere. That could be said of 95% of the things that are happening in this world. At some point you're allowed to believe something to be true, it's not ruling out what you understand to be true can change when giving new information.

May I ask you where you think believing things gets us anyway? what do you think anyone here can do about it?

I know I am allowed to believe what I will same as I am allowed to distrust anything I want also.

Believe/trust in gravity.

It doesn’t care if you believe in it or not, the end result is the same.

Scepticism is fine, but if you are stating that the weight of evidence coming from multiple disparate sources, including many States, media organisations, tech companies (like the privately owned satellite companies providing info about this conflict), and individuals sending back uncensored photos & media from the conflict, is balanced by that coming from a repressive State who are trying to justify their illegal actions and whose Government has passed laws making it illegal to doubt the Russian Government line on the conflict in The Ukraine, you’re not being sceptical…

[Jaymoss]

Hugh just accept you are you and I am me I will be how I want that ok with you bud?

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Hugh just accept you are you and I am me I will be how I want that ok with you bud?

I don’t think diversity is the problem here.

The problem is that simply observing there are two sides in a conflict isn’t enough. In fact, stopping there is at its worst moral cowardice. Note I’m not accusing you of that - I suspect you’re declining to post what you really think is going on because you may think there’s a theological dimension to it you’d rather not get into, and that’s fair enough. I’m trying not to get drawn into deep discussion of military tactics on other forums for similar reasons.

That said, if possible, it would be interesting to get your take on what really is happening. Who is the aggressor? Who is the victim? If there’s a plague on both their houses, why?

[Jaymoss]

Tell me Chris what exactly are you doing about the war? besides posting about it on a forum?

As for my take on it I simply do not know. On one hand there is a country invaded for whatever reason then on the other hand you have a once great nation slowly being surrounded by their ideological enemies.

Trust me I am no friend of the Russians. They imprison my fellow believers and have banned our faith

[ianch99]

Our Ukrainian guest comes from Dnipro where she lived with her son. When the nearby bridges & army camps were hit, she felt she had no choice but to leave. Her son remains behind. I also met a lady, a couple of days ago, who is 8 months pregnant and she fled from Sumy, near the Russian border, to Moldova and then to Romania. She is on her own here, her husband remains to fight.

Both are Russian speaking Ukrainians and they, and all the people they know, hate Putin with a passion. Yes, Ukraine was/is flawed: there is corruption, similar to other ex-Soviet regions but it is their country, not Putin's and they will never give in.

Don't be fooled, Putin is a facist and he does not care how many innocents he kills. He is evil by anyone's definition. It really is that simple.

[jfman]

In fairness, we don’t care how many he kills either. That’s why we have taken the women and children over here and are leaving the men to be fodder in a proxy war with second hand weapons. The military industrial complex profits go up as NATO rearms itself replacing the weapons donated to Ukraine.