Russia has invaded Ukraine

Originally Posted by Pierre

Sorry, I suggested a negotiated settlement and you called it appeasement.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=827

in any event, you've been consistently against a negotiated peace from the outset.

You suggested a negotiated settlement that would give away land from two NATO members, Poland and Lithuania, to Russia, and I called that appeasement…

Re "against a negotiated peace" - I’m against doing deals with regimes/people who have consistently broken agreements every time they initially invaded a country in the last thirty years - see Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, and who (repeatedly) give speeches stating that they wish to bring back the "Greater Rus", restoring the Soviet Territories to be under Russian rule.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

Maya Angelou

What makes you believe Russia/Putin wouldn’t repeat their previous behaviours?



---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:42 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Majorities in Italy, Greece and Bulgaria opposed this to the extent that they thought it was a bad idea to increase the supply of weapons to Ukraine.

Seemed like an odd bit to leave out when you selectively chose your sentences to put in bold.

Unless they’re the “wrong type” of Europeans.

The political consensus fragments as alternate minority positions in more places rise of course, and there’s more nuance within those majority positions - as Pierre correctly notes above to strengthen the negotiating hand is significantly different from a return to either 2022 or 2014 borders.

If I meant to say “a majority of people in the majority of countries” I’d have said that - I don’t believe that so I didn’t say it.

Three countries citizens, out of fourteen countries surveyed, who think it may be a bad idea to increase the supply of arms to Ukraine (not stop, not lessen, just not increase), is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "political consensus fragmenting in Europe"…

[jfman]

Yet majorities for the opposite in just two countries were worth calling out.

Fair enough, when it fragments further and they tell Zelensky to get his pen out I’ll remind you of your comprehensive assessment.

Almost all of the figures are deteriorating for Ukraine if you compared it like for like with attitudes in 2022 and 2023. Every other day the media has an article to nudge the average person into thinking it’s a futile exercise.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

What makes you believe Russia/Putin wouldn’t repeat their previous behaviours?

Nothing.

But it would stop the fighting.

The US election will be pivotal. If Trump decides to support Ukraine. Putin will have to think whether he wants to carry on for four more years.

If Trump looks to end it, he’ll just threaten to turn off the money tap. Europe can’t finance it on their own.

[pip08456]

For our resident vatniks this is what Russians think. Make of it what you will.

[jfman]

I’ll assume since you’ve used that unevidenced slur once more you’re probably aiming at Pierre or myself.

Helpfully, you’ve pointed out it’s a single Russian, so I’ll “make of it” that you are incapable of analysis or critical thought by attributing one lone voice to the entire Russian people. Nobody would claim English people were racist if I found a single racist Englishman.

It’s also helpful that it has his name at the top, unattributed I’d have taken the opening to have been the words of Benjamin Netanyahu. I’ll condemn both - something I bet you cannot bring yourself to do.

[pip08456]

Anatoly is a well known Russian war blogger and is normally very accurate in what he posts.

I have not made any reference to Pierre.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Anatoly is a well known Russian war blogger and is normally very accurate in what he posts.

I have not made any reference to Pierre.

You're embarrassing yourself here. One war blogger (with 5.9k subscribers in that screenshot) does not make the voice of any nation. It's entirely one opinion - there's nothing to measure against "accuracy".

Somewhat ironic you used that as an example really since you also pick and choose which civilians can be victims on the basis of their ethnicity/nationality you have far more in common with his ethos than I, or anyone else, on this board.

[Pierre]

Everybody happy to give Ukraine £3 Billion a year…..indefinitely?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r%20has%20said.

Not that Ukraine will get it, most will go to the US military industrial complex, I’m sure our BAe systems will get their cut.

Zelenskyy will trouser his cut. I doubt we’ll receive any audited accounts for how and where he spends it.

No loans, lend lease etc that we had to do during the two world wars that we spent 2-3 generations paying back.

No, seems to be free money.

[Hom3r]

If Trump gets in he will withdraw all US support from Ukraine.

[jfman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...ssia-offensive

Attempts to attract new soldiers have been stymied by widespread reports and rumours online over inadequate training, poor commanders and the reality of gruesome trench fighting. Only 35% of Ukrainian men said they were prepared to serve if called up, one survey in March said.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by jfman

Every other day the media has an article to nudge the average person into thinking it’s a futile exercise.

CNN and Zelensky himself getting in on the shift of tone.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/20/e...ntl/index.html

Headline: Facing difficult frontline reality and the prospect of Trump in the White House, Zelensky hints at negotiations with Russia

You just keep parroting Kremlin lines old chap. Consistency is reassuring in these difficult times …

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

You just keep parroting Kremlin lines old chap. Consistency is reassuring in these difficult times …

I’m not sure it’s a Kremlin line to merely point at a CNN headline.

What’s the angle? Why are CNN, presumably engaging in misinformation, acting to facilitate it?

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not sure it’s a Kremlin line to merely point at a CNN headline.

What’s the angle? Why are CNN, presumably engaging in misinformation, acting to facilitate it?

What Zelensky has always believed to be the case about negotiations, and continues to believe is the case:

Negotiating is not the problem. The problem is, what is the cost?

Ukraine will not accept a proposal where it is forced to pay the cost of a war it did not start, and does not want.

This war is russia's responsibility, and it can end today if russia wants. They can remove their soldiers and go home.

Why do people not talk about that as a realistic solution? The cost would be much lower on russia than it is on Ukraine.

Russia just needs to remove its soldiers and its equipment, and go back home. It's simple.

The video clip is available here: https://x.com/saintjavelin/status/18...56-Kgau3lzowJw

As with all reporting, especially in the US, framing is everything.

[jfman]

Which brings me full circle.

The headline and story as presented would have been inconceivable 12 months ago. This is not accidental.

Originally Posted by jfman

Every other day the media has an article to nudge the average person into thinking it’s a futile exercise.