Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Posted by Hugh in the previous thread.

I've found a taalk by Dr Bryan Brindle an Associate Professor of Viral Immunology. He back up his talk with the scientific evidence.

He covers 3 areas, Rapid Antigen Tests (esp. Canadian Gov. guidelines), General and child mask wearing efficiacy and finally child age 5-11 vaccination.

As regards masks it starts about 16.15 minutes in. Quite an interesting talk. I'm sure Pierre will enjoy it.

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BREAKING: COVID-19: Most Omicron cases are 'mild' and there's no evidence to suggest vaccines may be less effective against the variant, says WHO official

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...s-who-12483729

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Here’s his paper (written April 24 this year) on the same subjects, for those who don’t want to watch the video.

https://www.jccf.ca/wp-content/uploa...ram-Bridle.pdf

And counterpoint…

https://byrambridle.com/

Dr Brindle’s claim Reality

---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:23 ----------

Good news

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So how come German ICUs are reaching capacity?
Link

Usual example of whatever Germany decides, the rest of the EU is forced to follow.

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Still Delta hitting the anti vaxxers I assume

They have been rapidly approaching capacity well in advance of Omicron

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So Covid is currently a serious issue, even without Omicron.

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Hope that helps.

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who said otherwise??

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In much of continental Europe, yes it certainly is. They are beginning to experience the same wave of infections we rode out from summer onwards, having unlocked earlier and more fully. Add to that their greater problem with anti-vax sentiment and the fact that they’re suffering it at a time of year when respiratory infections are always worse, and it’s not looking great for them.

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What class is that then, upper gutter?

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Well that kind like to feel superior to the oiks.

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Just out of interest were there staff on the door in Waitrose?

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The thing is, since it's actually illegal to challenge someone why they aren't wearing one (because of the rules around mask exceptions) then one actually doesn't know, if someone isn't wearing a mask, whether they are actually exempt because of a medical reason or another reason (doesn't always have to be an illness), or if they are just identifying exempt to avoid wearing one, or if they're simply being a ********.


I wouldn't consider it any of my business to know either.

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Seems to me that particular class bore the brunt of lockdowns, mask mandates etc and didn't have jobs allowing them to WFH. A sizeable amount helped keep critical retail businesses and supply chains running for those Waitrose customers.
Perhaps they have had enough.

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That’s why it’s just laughable, stating a £200 fine for not wearing a mask, which is totally unenforceable.

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The laughable thing is that it's very easy to avoid the situation.


Not suggesting that it is a good idea to do this, but, surely if one was inclined to try and circumvent the mask rules, then when challenged they simply need to say "I'm exempt from wearing a face covering" which means they can't be challenged further, denied entry or service, or fined for not wearing one.


Surely anyone who is wilfully inclined to transgress on this would know that anyway.



Regardless, as they have seen fit to make it law, and irrespective of whatever arguments one may have about the effectiveness or otherwise of masks, everyone who can wear one probably should until we know more about Omicron.

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Exactly. A master stroke by Boris, who doesn’t want these restrictions but has to put out an olive branch to the scientists who are trying to take control, aided and abetted by the Opposition.

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They most certainly have.

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End of the day anyone who can wear a mask and chooses not to wear a mask is just pig headed and they deserve a slap just for being disruptive

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And who will administer this slap

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These scientists who are are trying to take control, what's their agenda ? What will they do should they successfully take over the world?

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At the end of my day anyone that can wear a mask and chooses not to is expressing their personal freedoms.

If it was really important that they did wear a mask, I’d probably take a different view but the government doesn’t think it really important so neither do I.

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Who said anything about scientists wanting to take over the world? You been watching Moonraker again?

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To be fair, the government thinks they're important enough to make them legally required in multiple environments.

Any person can indeed not wear a mask and choose to express their personal freedoms, the flip side is they could (and should) be fined if they're found to be breaking said laws.

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------


OB posted about the scientists 'taking control' of what? who knows? but considering the vast majority of scientists globally are in agreement then you would have to assume said taking control is being done at a global level.....

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No one said the world, mrmistoffelees was getting it from here:

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And given them a “not wear a mask” option, penalty free, if they so choose.

They can’t. If approached by a policeman, you simply say I am exempt as it gives me anxiety - and that is it, conversation over the police cannot do anything.

Scientists in agreement? You sure about that? Some are some aren’t.

But in regards to measures, it is the government where the buck stops.

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Mistoffelees did, but he was just ramping up what OB said, which I disagree with anyway

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I think the majority of scientists are in agreement like i said.

And if people choose not to wear a mask where you're legally required to because they're 'making a protest' then fair enough, but they should at least have the balls to admit why they're doing it rather than lie and say it's due to a medical issue.

Principles it would appear, only extend to individuals until there's a financial implication.

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Maybe they just don’t want to wear one?

I don’t see why?

If there were any principles mask mandates wouldn’t have been reintroduced.

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We all have to do things we might not want to in life. It is all part of being in a society where there are others to think about instead of yourself. Far too many selfish people out there

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I think this concept will be lost on him I'm afraid.

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still worth airing :)

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Do as you’re told, even when you can see the rules don’t make sense, are not based on evidence and are just an edict from the government.

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Plenty of evidence masks work.
You just want your own way. Something else we all want but some will stamp their feet and cry if someone tells them they have to do different

Yeah cuz we just lost a war had our economy crippled by the enemy forcing us to pay massive reparations and we have a charismatic leader who we trust so we follow him

See the blatant differences between the 1930s and now????

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I didn’t say they didn’t - well some masks work - but yes, I’m all for masks when evidenced they are required

No just don’t think I should do something that is plainly illogical because I’m told to do it.

the attachment was before the war in nazi Germany

Go and read, then we’ll talk.

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The rules do make sense its just the muppets who don't give a toss about anyone else that are the problem.

Trust Boris, he knows best ;)

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Please, and I mean please, do tell me how this makes sense?

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True that doesn't make sense.Probably something to do with Wetherspoons owner. Take it up with your MP over a pint?

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It doesn’t, because it’s inconsistent - it should be like before, wearing masks except when at the table to minimise infection; we can’t totally eradicate risk (if we want to keep pubs and restaurants open), but we should try to reduce the risk to others.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021...id-cases-study

It’s not all or nothing, it’s about identifying, managing, and reducing risk.

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Amen.

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The war I was referring to was WWI. The reparations were what Germany had to pay the allies and the charismatic leader was Hitler. I know the history well enough ta

The differences between then and now are obvious. We have not lost a war we are not paying reparations and well Boris innit

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Why? What evidence do you have this course of action is required at this stage?

What is the risk? Has it been measured and quantified?

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Just do as you are asked or not it is up to you . Moaning on a forum like this will make absolutely no difference.

I see you have been here since 2003. In the years since have you ever known anything you have said ( or anyone for that matter ) made any difference to any policy anywhere ever???

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So you want to see deaths and the NHS overwhelmed first? Seems sensible to take precautions until we know how serious this variant is. We just don't know atm.

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Ok apologies, I misinterpreted your reply.

But there are parallels, the anti-vaxxers (of which I am not) are being vilified by the “good” people. Same with face masks. It’s wholly performative so you can look down on those that don’t want to comply, because you’re a “good” citizen.

When in reality, if you’re vaccinated then it shouldn’t be an issue for you what anyone else does.

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The difference between shops and pubs is that most people can wear a mask in a shop.


In a pub you have to take the mask off for eating and drinking which is likely to be at least the majority if not all the time you are in there. So there is not really any point wearing a mask at any point whilst in there, since the previous silliness of wearing a mask when you're moving around but not when seated presumably was of little or none effect.


Also, people with underlying conditions can choose not to go to the pub but can't necessarily choose not to go to Tesco for their shopping, or wherever.

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I have not changed. I still wore a mask even when they said I did not have to. I care about others and want to do what I can to help slow it down. I am frustrated by those who I see as selfish but at least if ever I stand for judgement before my God I will do so with a relatively clear conscience

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An there was I just about to give you the benefit of the doubt.

It’s a discussion forum, we’re discussing it. If I want to discuss it, it’s not up to you. Just do as you’re asked ( by me) and leave the discussion then.

You fail to understand the dynamics of a discussion forum.

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unfortunately I do not believe that is true. The vaccine as has been said slows the spread and stops most people getting seriously ill. We do agree on that I assume? Those who are not vaccinated will carry the virus for a longer period of time and giving it more of a chance to mutate.

SA for example has a 42% vaccination rate and that is now so dunno what it was pre the new variant and look what spawned there.

As far as I am aware the more people vaccinated the less chance of mutations and it only takes one to be as bad as delta dodge the vaccines and kill more and a lot of us will be stuffed then

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You can’t run the world or your life on the pre-cautionary principle, I mean you can try. I don’t think it’ll work out for you though.

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I said it was up to you what you do. I do understand the dynamics. We all waste some of our spare time discussing things and make absolutely no difference.

Unless of course you sometimes offer support and then it is not all a waste I guess

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The difference is it’ll transmit much easier in a pub, club

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Not singling you out.


But it seems to me that this latest variant has just polarised people.


Those who wanted masks all along still want them, those who didn't, still don't and either refuse or accept them under sufferance.


Though it does make sense to be cautious whilst we're looking at the facts, the indications are that the variant is milder, though there still presumably isn't enough time to be sure about this.


But in the situation where it is personal choice, the important thing is that people need to respect that personal choice. If it isn't mandatory to wear masks, people who choose to should equally not be vilified by those who choose to, as people who choose not to should not be by those who choose to.



After all, they only offer protection if someone who has the virus but doesn't know it spreads it to others. And they do cause some people issues, which is why not everyone has to wear one.

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Because you’re a good citizen, well yay for you.

But not everybody wants to be you.

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and being totally brutal you have a choice to avoid those

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I personally think the back to normal was a mistake. I believe they shoudl not have lifted mask rules and to a degree some from of social distancing should have been left in place. I am of ill health and will not go into a pub or a busy market and tbh I avoid shopping as much as I can. A week ago Monday I went to Aldi and it quite busy and I was the only one without a mask. It was like covid did not exist. Well it has not gone anywhere and it is still killing people a hell of a lot more than the flu

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no some people do not give a toss about others. Why should I give a toss about them so make em wear a mask and fine em if they refuse I am all for it

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Prevents serious illness, yes. Slows transmission……well does it? By how much? The government have been very sure to advise us that vaccinated people can still catch and transmit the virus.

Why will they carry it for longer?

What appears to be fairly high (I don’t have any data) transmissible strain, that results in a “mild” infection.

Again, I would have agreed but all I’ve been told by U.K. Gov and by pundits on the tv is that the vaccines are very good at preventing serious illness but you can still catch and transmit.

According to the vaccine manufacturer’s it’s unlikely a strain will evolve that can’t edit a vaccine for.

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I won’t be avoiding them, and nor will many many people, therefore they remain a transmission hotbed, but not as bad as shops.

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Fully understand your health conditions, but you do have a choice not to go to a pub or a busy place (I would agree about avoiding crowds in general).


But this is again a situation of projecting ones own issues onto others. The majority of people are healthy and shouldn't be treated as though they are sick when a minority could take precautions, such as avoiding crowds, wearing surgical masks, if they feel they are at risk of being with others.



A fair amount of these "underlying conditions" may also affect people who have colds, flu, etc. Now I do totally agree that people who have an illness which they can spread to others should stay at home as much as possible, but we don't need mask mandates for this.



That argument also conveniently swerves those who are exempt from wearing a face covering, and aren't simply being cocks about it. And not all of those are physical - if someone was assaulted, and held over their mouth to prevent them shouting for help, that attack could traumatise them and a face covering may well trigger them.

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And I’m not, and while I sympathise about your health, I will not curtail my lifestyle because of it.


And around we go. You can’t fine them.

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But Covid has been shown to have no respect for healthy or not healthy. The figures posted in the other thread show how the majority now going into hospital are unvaccinated. Just imagine how many less there would be if everyone had the vaccine? If everyone was vaccinated then yes only those with health issues would need to take care.

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That’s just plain incorrect sorry.

There are some people of course that are healthy and younger that may become seriously but it is a very small number. The exception does not make the rule.

No shit? What are the odds?

I don’t disagree

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Seems like the WHO have changed their tune somewhat on their earlier statement regarding omicron only causing mild symptoms

https://apple.news/A68kie14ISImbZjJQnnIUEQ

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How is your car insurance, your house & contents insurance, your life insurance, and your holiday insurance?

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Seems to me it's just going to take a couple of weeks before they know for sure.

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That paranoid stuff is just for people who cower under the stairs :rolleyes:

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Do any of those require you to wear a mask ?
Do any of them (supposedly) prevent transmission of a virus, or possibly make you ill.
(Granted, the price of some of them might make you feel faint). :erm:

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Fine and totally irrelevant to the discussion thanks.

Hope that helps

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I get the point there but the analogy doesn't really work, nor do many analogies you can pull off it.


You have to insure your car, you don't have to insure holidays or homes, though it's a good idea to.


If you're trying to equate having holiday insurance to wearing a mask, then is there a situation where someone going on holiday with no insurance can get themselves in a situation where the lack of insurance causes them an issue on holiday and their situation directly causes a situation for others who are on holiday whether they have insurance or not. That's an equivalent analogy to someone who has covid and goes somewhere without a mask on and infects other people (which will happen whether or not they are wearing a mask), It doesn't happen and though mask wearing, like holiday insurance, is a good idea for now at least.


Insuring your car does protect others though because your insurance won't need to pay out if you have an accident which isn't your fault, it will be the other party's. But I still don't see the direct parallel between any of this and mask wearing.


If they were really bothered about getting tabs on omicron they would be encouraging people to do LFTs before leaving the house, if they test positive then you need to isolate until confirmed by PCR, which they'd then have to sequence. In that case, there's probably less need for masks anyway if these people have tested negative.

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Belated reply, good morning btw

1. That's fine, but as has been covered elsewhere we all have to do things which we don't want too, or make little legal sense.

2. If people feel so strongly and want to intentionally break the law with their 'protest' then why would they not accept the consequences of doing so rather than cowering behind medical reasons that aren't applicable to them.

3. Why not?

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You don't have to insure your car at all, however you do need to insure it to legally drive it on a public road.

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Oh for heaven's sake just wear the damned mask and wear it OVER your nose.

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:td:

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If you don't want to wear a mask, perhaps you could stay at home and order online instead. Thus, allowing the majority who have no issue whatsoever with wearing masks to go about their business in shops etc.

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Finally managed to book a Booster at a reasonable location and time, loads of options booking this morning compared to the last few days.

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i went shopping yesterday and wore a mask, i just had a box of 50 delivered,
what i don't like is people barking orders about mask wearing hence the thumbs down.
i'm going out xmas shopping soon i might wear 2 masks just to show how virtuous i am, i hope this makes me upper class ;)

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The 'barking orders' as you eloquently comes about because people who refuse to wear a mask and are puffing their chests out about protesting. whilst in reality the vast majority of which aren't really protesting merely using it as an excuse because they can't be bothered and/or have no consideration for others.

You're more likely to find that barking orders = frustration

Nothing, will ever make you upper class my man... not even a blood transfusion.

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Not even shopping at Waitrose:erm:

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Lower middle class that... Fortnum & Mason is where it's at ;)

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:tu:

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I don't think there's many of those in Scunthorpe, Seph. However, if Johnson is serious about levelling-up the country, he will surely incentivise Waitrose to open a branch there, so Papa doesn't have to drive to Lincoln for his weekly shop. ;)

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Strange - I thought they worked on the "precautionary principle", which seems fairly relevant.

You posted And masks work on the precautionary principle of "if you wear one, you’re less likely to infect others or be infected"…

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Cleethorpes Andrew, I'm sure we had a Waitrose but now it's co-op.

but obviously i would wear a mask wherever it was.

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Oh for gods sake, just put your hand in the fire. Everybody else is doing it. If you’re a good person you’ll do it. I’m doing it, I’m a good person and morally superior to you.

What do you mean there’s no evidence that putting your hand in the fire will make a difference. It might make a difference isn’t that good enough for you. If we all put our hands in the fire like we’re told to by the government it possibly maybe might not hurt.

Oh for gods sake just do as your told, peasant.

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You obviously don’t know what the precautionary principle is then.

It’s not solved by calling Direct Line.

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:tu:

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What happens if you have something on your hand that is growing could kill you and your loved ones and a good way of stopping it spreading is to put your hand in the fire. Would you then ??

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There's well known,peer reviewed & documented evidence that putting your hand in a fire will cause you significant damage and pain up to and including death (should an infection come about as a result)

There's no known evidence supporting the same thing with wearing a mask, there is however peer reviewed & documented evidence that says masks may offer a degree of transmission reduction.

It's not about being morally superior, it's about having some common sense and consideration for others, something which in quite a few anti-maskers seems to be lacking (not necessarily yourself)

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TBH having common sense and consideration for others does make you morally superior to those who only think of themselves.

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BREAKING: From Germany's Angela Merkel just now says "obligatory vaccinations" from February.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...nated-12484587

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I only wear a mask because it's the law, if it wasn't i would not wear one guess i must be selfish and inferior.

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I just clicked my heels together and thought of Adolf.

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Link

That's a scary transmission level.

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Funny you should say this because currently trending on twitter is "Nazi Germany". :erm:

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It's not funny it's tragic :(

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How did this make you think of Adolf? What’s the link?

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The Sky News headline is a bit misleading as the report says the German parliament will consider making coronavirus jabs mandatory from February. (It might be that means it's highly likely to happen, I'm not familiar with the workings of German democracy.)

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Oh well done, now you've gone & done it !

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It really is tragic…

Imagine people comparing preventative medication and medical sanitary precautions with actions that ended up killing 60 million people and acts of genocide.

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Not on my Twitter feed

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...2&d=1638459870

https://help.twitter.com/en/using-tw...-trending-faqs