Is it time to leave the UK?
 

So here is the question...


Is it time to leave the UK?




We have energy costs spiraling through the roof, most of us haven't had a pay rise in decades, and even if you have had a pay rise, it is often not a pay rise as it is not keeping up with inflation.

People are getting poorer every day. The middle class family man that works hard all week gets no help. They will become the homeless poor people of tomorrow.


Food prices have gone up dramatically.


The NHS is at breaking point.


Our government is in ruins. And currently it is all about the ritch getting ritcher. Any help whatsoever is very narrowly focussed.

Banks have become too greedy. Gone are the days when an ISA was actually a good way of saving money.




Is it time to ditch the UK?

If so, where would you go?




It certainly isnt a good time right now.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

We are at the centre of world time, world finance and the world’s most widely-spoken language, with a reputation for stable government and society. The territory hasn’t been successfully invaded in centuries.

It is very fashionable, especially on the British Left, to whine about what a dreadful place this is, but don’t let self loathing and short sightedness sway you. This is one of the great places to live on Earth, regardless of whatever transient issues we have right now.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Yet ironically people who live here reap almost none of the benefits of the above.

I’d argue that the self loathing on the right far outweighs that on the left. Constantly pining for a nostalgic past that never genuinely existed. Believing more in the myth of what this country used to be than actually what it was - a parasite on the rest of the world.

The only thing left to exploit is the people here hence the need to invent the bogeyman of the immigrant, the Brussels bureaucrat, to distract from reality.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

The UK is indeed a wonderful place and you would think that as a modern country we would have low poverty and a great way of life. But the reality is it is far from that.


People are now having to choose what they spend to ensure they can feed their children, many will die from not being able to heat their homes.....The list goes on.


Young people are in even more debt than ever before....Universities are making millions promising super paid jobs, council taxes keep rising, etc.
Millions of people will never get on to the property ladder.




And talking of governments, there hasnt been a stable government for a long time. Neither left or right are getting it right.



There was a time when a young person had lots to look forward to with progression and gaining higher salaries as they get older, owning a home, etc.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

"the grass is always greener"

my guess is, in each other "more desirable" country, there is a forum with someone saying "is it time to leave, X looks better" ;)

For example, Oz and NZ are often desirable countries for ppl to go to, if you have the points, I know ppl who went there years ago, have no desire to come back, I know ppl who went there, after a year or so came back. I also know Australians and New Zealanders who have come here with no desire to go back.

I also know Polish, German, and other Europeans who have settled here, and despite Brexit, are happy here still. Some came here as a couple, and have since had children here, others came here single, and met their partners here and have started families, so going back would be a massive undertaking, and maybe they have discussed going back, but they don't seem in any rush to.

However that's anecdotal, the next poster may say they've lost 1/2 their workforce as they've gone home, and there were stories that a lot of manual workers, fruit pickers etc had returned home, but I wonder if there's a lot of Brits abroad who have come back for similar reasons?

Better the devil you know?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Ironically, it is naïve exceptionalism like this that is the major cause of the broken country we now have. We know who did it, we know how they did it and we know why they did it. It is a bit like the fruitless search for Brexit benefits: "Well, we haven't been invaded for centuries?" is one of the best reasons they can come up with. Desperate stuff.

The delusion of "transient issues" and the denial of the root causes behind them will just accelerate the decline. The poetic irony is that you can't now leave the UK as you once we're able to do, even if you wanted to :(

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I got thinking about that final point during the afternoon. I do wonder if this was by design to prevent ‘brain drain’ just as East Germany put up the Berlin Wall. If the current trajectory of having among the largest economic decline and fall in living standards among developed nations - and a seeming absence of political will to reverse the decline - it’s not difficult to see how some might seek to move to a country with genuine pride in itself, a developed culture and identity, and importantly without a neurotic hangover from who it used to be.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

So the large numbers of unemployable dross should be given large sums, just so they aren't in poverty?
The average income would go up, so using the nonsensical definition of poverty, they would still be in poverty.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Neither our economic decline nor the fall in living standards have anything to do with the definition of poverty.

‘Large numbers of unemployable dross’ - exactly what you expect to be climbing over as you exit a major railway station as you think to yourself this is one of the great places on Earth to live :rofl:

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

The definition of poverty is such that if a loaf of bread goes up to £100 a loaf, the number in poverty is unchanged. How ludicrous is that?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You seem nice… :erm:

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I think you are crediting those behind this debacle with more intelligence that they deserve. The really interesting part are the demographics in play: no one born in this millennium voted for the current situation we're in but they are the generation who are/will be bearing the full cost of this tragedy. The ongoing demise of the generation who sold their birth right and the rise of Gen Z will define the choices of the next decade. One thing is for certain is that the Tory Party in its current incarnation is extinct. Liz Truss is the last of her evolutionary line: a true dinosaur in political terms.

One can only hope that the next choices we make as country start to remodel the "trickle up" economy and engenders a "we" mentality rather than a "me" mentality.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

The sad thing is that some people are better off claiming benefits and doing less work than if they had a job.
We need to be addressing this issue instead of throwing millions of pounds away. People know they can abuse the system and they are doing it.


And it is not just the poor doing it. My local MP is throwing millions into projects that benefit him and hardly no one else. Splashing money away without taking onboard any public views.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

My feeling is that it is better to go somewhere rather than "running away" from somewhere.


If you are in the former you are going to a place you want to go to and have researched and planned. You are doing a positive and that's far easier to sell to family and friends and you will have worked out your support network in your new home.


In the latter you too often find you take the same problems you have to a new location. You are still you.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

That is so right, tweetie. If you are focussed on doing well and you are organised in your approach, you won’t go far wrong.

The whiners amongst us will complain no matter what and will never succeed.

---------- Post added at 14:33 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------

Oh diddums, what a pathetic lot of vitriol. My generation, on the whole, has faced many difficulties over the years and have risen above it and succeeded in life. This is despite high interest rates that nearly got the better of those who had saved up to get mortgages during the seventies, eighties and nineties they could barely pay.

You talk about the older generation as if they had special privileges, so why am I seeing my daughters doing just as well or better, and other people they went to school with doing well for themselves as well?

If you have a negative approach to everything and you are constantly feeling jealous of people who have more than you, you will never, ever succeed.

I am proud to live in this country. I don’t hark back to our former empire as people like you like to believe because I didn’t live through it and I have no desire to take over and enslave other countries.

I used to want to live in the US, but now I’m older, this does not seem such a desirable move. When I look around, I see that this must be the best place to live and others seem to agree because they all want to come here.

So, sorry, I cannot agree with your depressing view of it all and can only suggest that you emigrate if things are that bad in your opinion, but don’t just sit there at your computer moaning about everything. That will achieve nothing, I’m afraid.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Oh dear, where to start. Let me start saying that, personally, I am very successful. I have no need to be jealous of people for financial reasons. Far from it.

Your misrepresentation of your (and my) generation is so far from the truth it is laughable. I am not going to waste my time trying to correct you. There is no point in that you will never accept evidence-based reasoning. Your forum history demonstrates this. Again, the suggestion to "emigrate" is so perverse to be a sick joke. You literally took away that option.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

:rofl:

No major war, sustained economic growth, selling off the family silver and mortgaging future generations wealth. Sure, times was tough.

Historic revisionism of the highest order. Any comparison of average earnings to average house prices proves you wrong.

I love small observational studies. I thought Brits were all workshy and lazy, and this was stifling our capability for growth?

:rofl: any evidence for this, at all? What’s the difference between being jealous and being aspirational? Isn’t wanting more the same as entrepreneurial spirit?

:rofl:

From a man sitting at his computer moaning about people moaning.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You are being economical with actuality - I bought my first house (in Berkshire) in 84, and 100% mortgages (and more) were common then, and we had MIRAS, which gave us tax relief on the first £30k of a mortgage - for comparison purposes, my first mortgage was £26.5k (100%) for a 2 bed semi in Thatcham, Berkshire, and that was 2.5 times my salary at the time. It’s currently priced at around £300k (so for equivalence, you’re looking for someone in their late 20s to be earning £120k pa to buy the same property I could afford to buy then…)

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-deposits.html

Yes, we got hit by high interest rates in the mid-80s and early 90s, but as long as you were treating your house as a home, rather than an investment to make a quick buck, most people weathered the storm.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I'm pretty sure you well telling us a few posts ago about the terrible economic decline for the last 40 years, so which is it :confused:

How so ? How is that related to high interest rates (12 - 15 % IIRC).

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I’ve never said the economy has been in decline - indeed anyone could have quickly pulled out a long term chart of GDP and proven me wrong if I had.

However the economic growth has largely been as a result of selling everything off and borrowing (state and personal debt).

This isn’t mutually exclusive with my 40 years of economic failure line - as all we’ve done is saved up all the problems until right around now when we have to face up to the failure of privatisations or the fact the low tax economy was a myth.

The economy can also grow while inequalities grow, public services decline, living standards fall. The question is at that point who is the economy being run for the benefit of.

Even with higher interest rates homes were more affordable. There was also the big sell off of social housing, which I forgot to include above in the windfalls that the state pulled in.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Just to following up on this entitled work of fiction: the generation OB & I belong to had the best of it. We have stable careers, stable country, low house-to-salary ratios, free University, good healthcare, etc. etc. Our childrens' generation have none of this, in part, due to the deliberate choices of people like OB.

These people who basically just had good timing being born now complain when people challenge these political choices. When people don't agree with their rose tinted view of reality and raise issues relating to this reality, the response has to be one of deflection, distraction and personal criticism. There is nothing left ..

We need to remodel the economy, patterned on the Scandinavian or Nordic Model. The high net worth individuals need to be taxed more: on wealth, not income to redistribute some of the gains made over the last 40 years of trickle up free market economics.

Lastly, with these changes, I personally would be paying more in taxes. I have no problem doing this as I believe in this country, unlike others who just want to take all the money they can and contribute nothing in return.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

My generation too.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

One reason for high house prices is too many people buying property for investments, holiday homes, rental which in turn pushes up property prices making the investment more attractive and up it cycles. Big investors (often foreign) will likely monitor the situation and if it looks like a price collapse sell earlier or wait and buy up even more.


I've always thought that charging VAT on houses not used for main property would be a good move and charging far higher rates (but for rentals that would just push rent up). The same can be seen in other countries, especially in "desirable" areas or areas that can be made desirable. But that just pushes others out.



I bought my first house in 1998 having saved for 10% deposit (some of that from NHS work), house price around 3 times salary and getting in just before prices went silly. On moving up my wife had savings so we didn't need to extend the mortgage. We were fortunate.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

:clap:

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Problem is then defining high net worth. Say you live in a property you bought cheap many years back in an area that has become "desirable" so increased disproportionately in value you may have high worth but you are cash poor why should you pay for that? Or you bought a wreck, worked on it over many years, invested in it (paying tax on all that work), looked after it so again it has high worth?


It seems to be a pretty leftist idea to tax success.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Think of it as a way of paying forward for those who are just starting out and don't have wealthy family to help out.Why should being successful exempt you from paying taxes?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Easy enough to exempt main residences from any ‘wealth tax"…

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

- Cecil Rhodes

(I'd expand that to cover all the UK.)

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Which brings us back to the Thread subject - Rhodes left the U.K. aged 17, and spent most of the rest of his life in Southern Africa…

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

:rofl:

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Well there are several hundred rubber dinghies stored along the Kent coast line going free perhaps escape to France and beyond. (I witnessed last week at Dungeness 50 migrants come ashore by the RNLI and put on a coach) they must think this country is great.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Not by his own choice, he had respiratory issues and was sent there by his father as they thought the climate may be better for him.

But that's a digression.

The quote still stands, by living in a Western Country you are already in a much better situation than most of the rest of the world, that isn't.

and, as Western Countries go, I would argue that the UK is one of the best.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I’m sure the climate would be better for everyone looking at their heating bills!

Is that their own choice?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You start with a good argument and then you spoilt with a lazy "pretty leftist idea to tax success" cliché. Being lucky in when & where you buy a house is not "earned success". Do you "earn" a lottery win? Of course not. We bought our house in 1993 and it is now worth nearly 10x the initial amount. Did I "earn" this, of course not.

Anyway, you are setting the bar too low. I would define high net worth at, let's say £3 million in total asset valuation. I would then argue that any high net worth individual should pay the same effective tax rate as you and I i.e. P.A.Y.E tax payers, on the increase of their net worth.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You are like 110+ years old :confused:

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Yes.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Yes .. if you measure it in Tory years :)

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

But the same could apply to any asset, you buy a derelict old car, spend years and money restoring it and if rare enough and done well enough could be worth a fortune. (Replace car with boat, aeroplane, jewellery, art work, the latter especially could be lent to museums for others to enjoy.)


Taxing wealth sounds like a typical leftist mechanism on success. I think the focus maybe should be on ensuring that the very high earners pay the proper tax on income, against that of course is if too draconian they just move elsewhere.


Wonders if we could apply VAT to football transfers, it's a purchase and a luxury, 20% on some of those figures would bring in some money.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Jesus sounds a bit of a leftie.. ;)

But seriously, you are proposing very rare exceptional occurrences to bolster your argument…

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

His brother James actually … though comparisons between the sons of Mary and Jeremy & Piers Corbyn, while tempting, would be wide of the mark :D

James had clearly been spending a lot of time with the Old Testament prophets when he penned that letter, but that was no bad thing. Those guys had a very dim view of injustice and social inequality, especially as there were provisions in Jewish law that were supposed to have prevented poverty becoming a generational problem.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

The problem is that increasingly people just accumulate huge amounts of wealth and they don't have an easily defined income stream to tax that is proportional to their wealth. An alternative would be brutally high inheritance tax over a certain amount but that wouldn't be popular either.

I also think lower income taxes but higher wealth taxes would incentivise people to earn money rather than hoard it and make it easier for people who are just starting to build wealth to do so. For example, it's probably not fair that someone who has no assets but has just started to earn a high income is taxed at the same rate as someone who is already loaded.

Land is the obvious issue here as well. It isn't 'success' if you were born early enough to get lower prices or if you inherited it.

The main argument against is it's probably really hard to implement.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I think it would be popular, very popular over a certain amount, inheritance tax was never meant for the little people but thanks to stupidly high house prices more people are falling into it, making corporations actually pay some tax would be popular to.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

And putting even a little bit of effort in to closing the tax gap would help pay a few fuels bills.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

£32 Billion would certainly help.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You are missing the obvious point here and that is the high net worth individuals proactively avoid income as you & I would define it. They have a myriad of vehicles to minimise their tax burden. This is why it is the increase of their total net worth that should be taxed at the same rate (or higher) as P.A.Y.E individuals.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

It shouldn’t exempt you from paying taxes, but you shouldn’t face punitive rates of tax either.

If you tax success too much, where’s the incentive?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

My friend is a Tax Partner at one of the Big Four firms - he earns a high six figure salary, and gets taxed at approx. 53% of his gross earnings.

As he puts it "my tax is a very large figure, but it still leaves a very large figure…".

He believes that those who earn a reasonable amount should pay their fair share, rather than try to avoid their contributions to society.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

But punitive, in this context, is a relative term. I would argue that high net worth individuals should pay the same effective tax rate on the increase in their wealth (not just "income") as you & I. Would you not agree?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

By wealth, you mean capital. People’s houses. Were they not taxed on these items when they were bought? How many times do you want to tax people?

You will lose the best talent if you carry on like that.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Lose them to where?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Depends on what you are using to define "net worth".
I see no good reason to tax people on their (main) residence.

I bought my house (in 1992) to live in.
Its not an investment, its my home (and my families).
Is it my fault its gone up in value so much since then ? [ No. ]

Whatever its now "worth" is just meaningless.
I dont actually have that money, and never will.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

From 2005 (and it's happened before).

Remember the "Brain Drain" in the 70's?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

What proportion is that of total graduates?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You, like OB, are immediately transposing wealth with the (family) home. This is not valid in the scenario I am outlining. The wealth of high net worth individuals (let's say 5+ million total) is far more distributed e.g. dividends, stocks, shares, property, bitcoin, antiques, cars, paintings, etc, etc.

I am not suggesting taxing people's primary residence, far from it.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

No, I am questioning what you define as net worth [wealth] since you make no mention of it.

Good. So thats cleared that up.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

My father bought the house I live in for £220 just had it valued just under 1 million :shocked : could be that the area has people that bought new back then , doubt they would have that much spare cash, l know of at least one old fella , that has a prepayment. meter because he struggles , yes I do feed it for him not that he knows that. So please don't equate home value with bank balances:confused: not a dig at you old boy. Have you seen the internet only posts seem to support streaming services.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You are assuming every one is motivated by greed, above all things. If you are transitioning to a society that is a more inclusive one, based on shared responsibility & support, you would attract people. You can ask the question why the Scandinavian model has not failed? Surely, based on your logic, they would have failed decades ago.

---------- Post added at 09:51 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

See post above: https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...3&postcount=54

As for the primary residence, I never mentioned it as a taxable asset. It was OB's deliberate deflection that introduced this. A classic approach :)

Me: "I suggest we tax the wealth of high net worth individuals"
OB: "Look, they want to tax your home!!!"

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You main home is exempt from capital gains, and to an extent I don't have an issue with taxing capital gain but to tax actual wealth does not seem a good move.
People can gain wealth by spending which may be taxed, why should that be taxed again? I feel the same about inheritance tax that could bankrupt if they gain wealth but not cash.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

It’s unlikely anyone is bankrupted by inheritance tax - they can always sell the assets to pay the inheritance tax, or they can pay the Inheritance Tax in 10 annual installments.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Or if the asset is a home get a mortgage for the amount of tax.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

But other possessions are fair game, eh?

This is the politics of envy, exposed for all to see.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Considering £2.5 trillion of debt it’s apparent someone hasn’t been paying their fair share over the years. Who is it? The people with the most or the least?

Should the poor of tomorrow pay for the fact the wealthy of the past relied upon debt upon debt, like parasites extracting as much as they can from a flawed system?

The politics of unrestricted capitalist greed exposed for all to see. Why pay for anything when you can psss the debt down the generations and onto the poor.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Forget the lazy tropes, try debating! Please justify in objective, moral, social and ethical terms how a single individual can accrue more wealth that they can literally never spend, go!

To add some context, if you earned $180,000 a day from when Jesus was born to the present day, you would still not be as rich as Jeff Bezos.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

You can always spend it if you try hard enough, the difference is do you want to.

Of course "net worth" is not the same as actual spendable money.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Spending it is certainly a more desirable outcome, more consistent with “trickle down economics”, than billions being concentrated into the hands of a few.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

The issue then should be to collect the tax at income properly from these individuals, collect capital gains as appropriate, tax interest earned. But the super rich always find ways to lessen their tax burden at the expense of everyone else.



The difficulty as always is hitting the right target without collateral damage. If some rich person acquires lots of paintings but then permanently lends them to a public gallery does that get different treatment to someone who buys a painting from someone unknown who gets discovered and becomes extremely valuable but is hanging in their front room. Do we have to have exceptions and exemptions and on it all goes?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. There’s £2.5 trillion out there nobody has paid for down the generations.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

As the people of the UK we should be given the choice when to oust a prime minister or if we want to change governments.

There should be a poll each year and if the majority of the public vote agrees then a genreal election is called.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

That would be a disaster, the country would be in constant confusion, not to mention the cost of a ballot every year, and an election.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Much more money is wasted on other things.

Atleast find a way to make public views count.


A load of (often corrupt) MP's making decisions for me is not what I want in the country I live in.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

I actually quite like the idea of holding them to account when things are fresh in peoples memories rather than letting the off the hook because years have passed in between, keep 'em honest, not sure a general election every year is the way to do it though but your idea would at least also strengthen our democracy who for many people is just a vote every four years

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Thats not an excuse to waste more.

Well as the topic suggests, you can always leave.

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Well, they will have their fair contribution to the billions of pounds worth of debt that’s being accrued to bail them out and keep their heads above water in this energy crisis, won’t they?

Re: Is it time to leave the UK?
 

Only through your perverse view of fair, OB.