Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

http://news.sky.com/story/bakers-who...mised-10631205

I believe that businesses should run the company as it seems fit. This couple had there Christian beliefs and stuck by them.

I find it literally stupid that someone should take a case to court to challenge that right.

I am certainly NOT against Gay Marriage. I believe that if they love each other, then that is fine.

The only people that have made anything out of this are Lawyers. Made richer

But this couple stuck by there beliefs - and lost. Which is a shame

Re: Its up to the Individual
 

This is the same principle as the Christian B&B owners ,in a business environment it's not really up to the individual it's what the law states that counts

Re: Its up to the Individual
 

As a christian ( some here know which flavor ) i don't see why they refused you have to be impartial in business as with anything where they are not of your faith

Galatians 3:28

James 2:1-4

Romans 1:14

Matthew 5:43-48

Matthew 7:1

Re: Its up to the Individual
 

Exactly and they broke the law at the end of the day.

Re: Its up to the Individual
 

They openly bake and sell cakes with witches etc on them. Surely the worship of pagan icons is against their beliefs. Selective as to whom they offend.
They got caught out breaking the law.
Perhaps they will be more Christian to ALL others in the future.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

It's not up to the individual at all!!

They are a business and should run it as one, no singling out certain customers. Whats next they refuse to make a cake because it has Muslim writings or Protestant wording?

Jeez

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Oddly enough, that well known conservative gay-hater Peter Tatchell thinks this judgment is unfair.

The bakers argued that they did not refuse service based on the customer's sexuality, but because they wished not to associate with his political campaign to redefine legal marriage in Northern Ireland. They argued that had he just wanted any cake, they would have happily served him.

This isn't the same as the Christian B&B owners who refused to sell a gay couple a double room because they were not a married, heterosexual couple. In that case, their refusal of service was clearly discrimination due to sexuality, which is against the law.

The appeal court has concluded that the law as it stands is against the actions of the bakers. If that is the case, only legislation can now change the situation. Clearly there are some veteran equality campaigners who now say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; that equality and free speech for everyone under the law cannot be used as a motive for inhibiting conscience.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, between treating each other fairly and not compelling each other to act against conscience. Exactly where that line should be .... well, discuss ...

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

How were they singling out the customers? It was the content they objected to, NOT the customers. They would have made the SAME decision if the customers had been heterosexual.

It doesn't take much to come up with countless examples of where somebody would find something or other offensive. As always it is a matter of who is the "offended" party as to whether anybody takes the slightest notice. Isn't that discrimination? Before this case arose, I have no doubt that a LGBTQ(and so on) business would've refused an anti-gay marriage message.

The B&B owners objected to them being in the same room together, just as they would with any other unmarried couple. They were ok with them being in separate rooms, but none were available.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

A danger coming here is that there will be those of any point of view who will then "target" a business with owners that have an opposing view. They will request a service counter to the owner's view and then bring charges if refused. The business (probably) shouldn't refuse service because of customer's view but that doesn't follow they can't if their own view is to be compromised.

For the cake issue, there are other bakers who would welcome such a commission. It's not like the refusal of one baker would deny the customer their cake.

You wouldn't charge a halal or kosher butcher for refusing to sell pork. If you went to such a butcher it would be understood they don't deal in pig products though I think Muslims can cook/sell pork just not eat it, look at the number or Muslim burger sellers who do have bacon burger on the menu.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

It would have been a thoughtful touch in support of gay marriage if the bakers had the two muppets engaged in buggery on top of the cake.

But seriously, this court decision is a precedent fraught with dangers.

You missed out Leviticus Chapter 18/22

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I think there is a degree of over compensation coming into equality that is just as dangerous as out and out inequality and whilst public businesses are limited by law how they can operate we're meant to be a free and democratic society. People must be able to abide by some personal beliefs even in business and unless they are the only provider of a service in a given area a customer that asks for something that they can get elsewhere should just go elsewhere not to the nearest lawyer.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Even the Grauniad thinks this was the wrong decision.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ng-on-the-cake

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I don't understand the mentality of some people.If one baker won't do what you ask there are others who will. There are always alternatives.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

So a business can refuse to serve you but not put a message that could offend your beliefs?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Maggy, total agree with you.
To me it doesn't make sense, or was this the couple wanted to try and prove a point.

I heard recently a radio programme, where someone was complaining about something rather stupid. And a guy said. Why don't people get a life. If one person doesn't serve you, go somewhere else - simples

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If you believe then that may well apply to you but we should leave any judging to god . If you run a business unless what you are asked is unlawful then you should provide the service impartially.

Matthew 7:1-3

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

You can quote the bible to make any point you want that's the whole problem with it!

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

only if you don't take the context or that the old testament is not in the main ( murder theft etc excepted ) part of what Christians should obey the ransom paid absolved them of most of the laws that [part imposes. So though those of us who believe should live up to what We profess to believe.

We should not impose those values beliefs on others. Tell them about them yes at the right time and place . Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone. ( I don't think anyone can imply that quote could ever mean that someone would ever be perfect enough to throw that stone ;) )

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Only if you think the Bible is a collection of sayings with no context.

The people who wrote it certainly didn't think that's what they were writing. Nor did the people who collected it together and affirmed it as the word of God.

The meetings at which the early Church leaders finally agreed what should be in the Bible and what shouldn't (and why) are well documented historical events. Whether or not you believe the message the Bible contains, you at least owe those leaders the courtesy of accepting that they made deliberate choices and believed those choices painted a clear and consistent picture of God's dealings with the human race, and the response God requires of us.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Overall there is a difference between not serving because the customer is .... and because the customer makes a request you don't feel you can accommodate or you believe to be unreasonable/unlawful.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I offered the additional reference as it seemed its exclusion was an accidental oversight.

It seems to me that the judgement has already been made by God.

It is unlawful according to the word of God.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Exactly my point, you quote bible verses and expect everyone to know the context yet you've taken the verse out of context.

There are other religions in the world! How would a Buddist, Hindu or anyone of another faith have any idea of the context of any verse plucked from the bible?

That is how evanglists work, they quote bible verses to prove any point they wish to make.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

And if every shop won't serve you because you are black/ gay/ female/ disabled/ Jewish/ Muslim/ Catholic/ Atheist (delete as applicable), where do you go?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

As has been stated multiple times, the bakers in this case did not refuse service based on the sexual orientation of the customer, but because they did not wish to associate with a political campaign to change the law in Northern Ireland.

As the appeal court ruling stands, it appears that legislation intended to prevent discrimination now also has the effect of compelling public statements in favour of certain beliefs or practices. It makes absolutely no difference how good or right a certain cause is perceived to be, nobody, in public or private, in business or at leisure, should be forced to do such a thing, and if that's the effect this law has had, then the law needs to change.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Doesn't that mean that a forum such as this is not allowed to be moderated?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Doesn't what mean?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I understand that, but I was replying to Arthur's point about not being served.

And I don't believe they were being forced to make a 'public statement' in favour of gay marriage - they were not being forced to display the cake, just make it...

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Sometimes verses can be quoted in isolation. Ex20:13 "You must not murder anyone" is a good case. The context allows such quoting.

Other times the context is important both in the surrounding text and in the original audience/culture. Generally any laws in the Old Testament not re-emphasised in the New are usually regarded as cultural and not applying to us today. e.g. rules on cutting beards, mixing fabric and so on.

---
And Chris has hit the nail on the head. The laws to protect have become a weapon to attack and victimise.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

On the contrary, I believe everything a business does makes a statement of one kind or another. Witness last year's outrage over effective tax rates for a recent example, and the number of businesses that have changed their arrangements (without having been legally obliged to).

Businesses can and do hold political opinions - we have the recent referendum as proof of that.

Businesses can and do support charitable causes of one kind or another.

Many of them make investment and operational decisions based on ethical considerations (use of fair trade ingredients, or selected investment funds, for example).

They may choose to act in ways that they perceive are good for their reputation or the wider social good and they may choose to campaign on one side or another of a political issue if they believe one side or the other favours their aims.

A printing business would be entirely at liberty to refuse to deal with the Labour Party if it favoured a Tory government. Unfortunately the appeal court has agreed with the argument that not discriminating against someone on the grounds of their sexual orientation extends to not refusing to produce campaign material that argues against something that is currently illegal. If the law really does say that, then it is absurd, and I would dearly love to see the McArthurs take this to the Supreme Court where its compatibility with their human rights can be properly considered.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If I'd been the McArthur's I'd have left that cake out in the rain until all the sweet green icing was flowing down. I wouldn't admit to doing it though; I'd just say 'someone' did it and that I can't bake a replacement because I don't have the recipe anymore.

Drama averted :D.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Doesn't the ruling say that providers of a service are not allowed to deny that service for those expressing views that are against the beliefs of the providers?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

That could be OK but the provider should be allowed to deny to provide a service that promotes a view to which they disagree with.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Wonder if the same would have happened if it had been a muslim baker rather than a Christian one... just putting it out there, funny how some religions trump the law, and other don't. Strange that.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Well that's the thing, isn't it. The ruling appears to have extended the tendrils of regulation into areas of behaviour that nobody considered before. Worth pointing out, however, that it doesn't forbid all moderation of any subject, the law under discussion would only apply to certain specified forms of discrimination, sexuality being one of them.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Is that why CF continues to?... :D

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

FGS it's got nothing to do with Trump!

;)

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If you have an example, that would be good.

Otherwise, you are just making stuff up...

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

How many cases are there where Muslim shop assistants have refused to serve certain items?

Halal slaughtered meat is by LAW, only allowed to consumed by Muslims. Is that enforced? All the Halal-only takeaways should technically only serve meat to Muslims.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

you are quoting from the old testament that as loads of laws which no longer apply or apply only to those who accept and believe.

the new testament has loads of references of how we should follow the law of the land.

Romans 13:1-5

Romans 3:31

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

+1

Making stuff up... ffs I'm not Arthur

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

i could have wrote out the whole chapter then gone into how it applies but as i was talking about how we should treat others and was mainly replying to some one who is complaining from a religious stand point i didn't feel the need but I am quite willing to do so ;)

my main point is that Christians should treat everyone equally with out discrimination and should follow the law. How God will judge those not of our faith is not up to us.

I can not see how allowing them to do as they wanted to do could in any case do anything but harm as it would lead to those who don't believe in mixed marriage or interfaith marriages then saying they also should be allowed to discriminate and then to other things.

I am all for being allowed to proclaim your faith door to door if you want but we should not be allowed to impose our views on others who don't hold those views

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I don't make things up either.

The biggest problem and the most Argumetive problem we have in the UK is quite simple. People are petrified to say the wrong word.
There was a point where the BBC were going to show a new show of Allo Allo, they decided not to show this is case it offended people.

They were going to remake an Alf Garnet show - if they did, this will probably be heavy watered down.

It about time, we were allowed to sat or do what we want. BUT, we cant. As it will offends people.

This couple decided against doing a cake, because it was a for gay couple - against there beliefs.

We cannot say certain words. Years ago, we had a great marmalade. Which had a certain figure on it. The Manufacturers bowed to pressure and took it off.

This started years ago with a certain Mary Whitehouse, who stick her oar in. And there used to be a fantastic called The Black and White Minstrel Show. This was axed because, certainly people took offence to what the stars were wearing.

For Christ sake Britain. Grow up for heavens sake

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Re your post - Muslim baker example would be nice...

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

So, the Ten Commandments - just Old Testament stuff that no longer applies?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Superseded by the beattitudes, from the mouth of Jesus himself iirc

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

That brand of marmalade is just as great as it ever was with or without the golliwog..There see I can say it..it's not a term of abuse these days. As for the show thank goodness it's gone.It was awful and it made me cringe.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Thanks. I am no Bible scholar and assumed the beatitudes supplemented the Commandments rather than superseded them.

But anyway, this is straying too far from the 'gay cake' issue ;)

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Do cakes have a sexual orientation? ;)

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I think fruit cakes are homosexual :D.

Look, I used the terminology of the thread title, so ask the OP.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Absolute codswallop ,anyone can eat Halal meat or even Kosha for that matter

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Some of us have actually checked the law.

Germany has a quota system to make sure that Halal and Kosher slaughter isn't used more than is required for religious reasons.

Link
Otherwise there would be no need for an exemption as all animal slaughter could be done that way.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Firstly ,that is only guidance not law ,secondly no where does it say that only Muslims can eat Halal meat

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

What has Gemany got to do with it? If nothing why mention it?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Non-Muslims are not allowed to be supplied with Halal slaughtered meat. The clue is in the word "must".
If you have a rule and allow exemptions on religious grounds, then you have to have methods to stop the wholesale abuse of the exemption. Germany chose to do it using quotas and a licensing system. No point having a law and then having an exemption which
would allow for breaking of that law 100% of the time.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

OK I'll put it another way.

What has the way Germany does things got anything to do with anything that this country does? If nothing why mention it?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Your interpreting the guidance wrong .There is an exception for Halal and Kosher slaughter,so if you are going to use that exception in your slaughter house and provide Halal or Kosher meat then you should show evidence that you are supplying meat for Muslims or Jews and not the local corner shop ,no where does any law state that the meat is only for Muslim or Jewish consumption,anyone can eat Halal or Kosher meat ,neither is there any law that requires Muslims or jews to only eat only Halal or Kosher meat .

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Where did I say that people couldn't eat Halal meat? There isn't a total ban on consumption of cigarettes or alcohol, but there are restrictions on who they can be sold to.

The original law comes from the EU. The EU also allows the national governments to have exemptions. The quote about Germany comes from a House of Commons debate on religious slaughter.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Right there.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The 2nd sentence and all the following references are to supply of halal meat. This thread is about SUPPLY, not consumption of a product/service.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

previous post mentioned murder etc but most of the mosaic law ( its not just ten commandments was all about atoning for sins or staying clean all of that, if you believe it was mostly removed by the ransom sacrifice like eating pork ;) )

Jesus showed many times that we should not judge or force others to our view.

we should obey the law when Paul wrote to Romans about obeying the law they were under the rule of Nero a rather nasty ruler as said and done but Paul still said the laws were to be obeyed.

some may want to use Acts 5:27-29 but this is about proclaiming your faith not preventing others going about their lives lawfully.

I will Quote once more i think this is hard to misconstrue

Romans 13:8-10

8 Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law. 9 The law says, “You must not be guilty of adultery. You must not murder anyone. You must not steal. You must not want to take your neighbor’s things.”[a] All these commands and all others are really only one rule: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”[b] 10 Love never hurts a neighbor, so loving is obeying all the law.


well i am off to eat some cake and i really couldn't care less whats written on it ;) as long as it doesn't have any of that horrible icing they use I like proper Icing and marzipan.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I won't eat Halal meat, as l don't like animal cruelty. My wife will. Does that mean l will be taken to court.

Its about time we are allowed to do what we want

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Technically your wife shouldn't be sold it, because the exemption in the law is there only for those whose religion requires it. Yet that exemption is routinely flaunted by just about everyone, everywhere.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The law only covers the slaughter of animals, once the carcass has been sold onto the kosher or halal outlet the retailer cannot discriminate on religeous grounds who they serve.

Catch 22.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The only 'forcing' and 'judging' has been made by the Judge who has got this wrong imho.

I like Bakewell Tart. Not sure she likes me though :)

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Ahh that Bakewell Tart, I remember her so well...

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Had an up and downer on the Scenic Railway did you? :)

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

A gentleman never tells...:D

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I assume if they don't get the result they want from the supreme court then they'll be going to the ECJ.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

"failing through their family company to create and provide a product bearing an explicit slogan 'Support Gay Marriage' to which they have a genuine objection in conscience."

why don't they make one . . . but charge £3500 though because of the stress it may cause

I'm sure someone else would do it for less

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If they had any sense they would just have said they were too busy.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Or spelt words wrong, support May marriage

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The whole thing is a nonsense, frankly. They are running a business, and the message on the cake would have been perfectly legal.

If they turn away business on a matter of principle like this, they deserve to fail. They are there to provide a service to the public, so they should provide it.

I have no sympathy at all for the owners of this bakery.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

No, they do have a right not to promote something that they fundamentally disagree with. They are not denying custom.

This isn't a situation where the customer has no alternative and while they state they were not trying to entrap the bakers by asking them for this message, the fact they then pursued it through the courts rather than simply going to another baker seems otherwise.

Wonder what the result would be if the bakers were gay and the customer requested a cake opposing gay marriage. Equally legal message and I'd expect the bakers to exercise their right to refuse custom.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Well, the courts say otherwise, tweetiepie, and they were denying custom.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

No, they didn't deny custom, they denied the customer's request which is different. If they refused to make any item because of the customer that would be wrong.

We shouldn't censor speech rights like this (it's different from hate speech but even there the definition can censor almost anything but there does seem to be a bias).

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If it had been me once they said they wouldn't make the cake with that slogan on it I'd have said bye and gone to another baker not as tho they are a rare specialist trade. I think these bakers were targeted by this couple who wanted to make a point and strike another blow for gay rights and we certainly have lots of crusader's these days looking for anything to turn into an issue. Just another example of modern society.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

As you may know my 17 year old niece came out when she was 16, and currently her girlfriend who is 18 is living with her while she saves and looks for a place to live.

I believe that the couple had a right to refuse to do this cake.

Surely the customer could have taken their custom elsewhere, rather than try and get some money, out of the cake makers.

Plus they surely have a right to serve anyone.

Shops can ask you too leave, if they want.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I agree that I would have gone elsewhere. But others would say, "Why should we?"

The bakery was not complying with the law, pure and simple. And they cannot refuse to serve people because they are gay either.

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:44 ----------

They denied a perfectly legal request for a cake with a gay slogan on it. You seem to be claiming that the bakery was within its rights to do this, but they were not, and the court has so determined.

I am puzzled by the weird distinctions you have made here, but they are wrong.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The problem here is that the bakery stated why they wouldn't take on the job AFIK. That is where the problem lies.IMHO.

Anyone running a company can decide if they wish to take a job on or not, making the case it's because of a sexual or racial preference is a no no. Best just to say "we cannot deliver it in the time frame you require!"

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

You mean.........lie?

OMG, whatever next?

:D

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The Law states that Halal slaughtered meat is not allowed to be supplied to non-Muslims. When is that ever enforced? The Animal Rights lot should be all over that like a rash, but they're not.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The baker's are christians and parts of christianity still oppose gay lifestyles and anything to do with gays so they were expressing their religious belief something that people are supposed to be able to do in this country or is it only islam that gets that freedom these days. There was absolutely no practical reason they couldn't have gone to another bakery without causing all this and as for the "why should they" part well in short no right is greater then another some might be more trendy but they are not more valuable.

It seems these days that people protest for rights they agree with whilst being happy to ignore the rights of others they don't agree with and just demonstrates how hypocritical society is becoming. This was a couple of faith asked to do something their faith opposed so they exercised their religious freedom only it's not a freedom now because christianity isn't one of those trendy things these days.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I think you've hit the nail on the head, I'd be prepared to bet that they weren't the first bakers they'd approached either

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The thing that marks this out is that they're providing a service. So if this wasn't a crime then would refusing a gay couple a hotel room be ok? Service in a restaurant? Membership of a gym?

The one difference here is that they weren't asking to buy a cake but have the baker write a message on it that was against his own views. Now I think that still qualifies as a service but if this were the United States I wonder if they would be protected under the first amendment as it's compelled speech?

Personally I think they should have made the cake. They weren't asking to marry the baker or get him to perform the ceremony. Don't understand the massive deal. If it's your profession to take someone else's words and write it down on a cake then who cares if you agree with the sentiment or not.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

No they were just expecting those bakers to do what they wanted and i suspect were probably aware of the baker's faith as that's the usual tactic today know someone objects to it and then make a point of asking for something you know will cause trouble. Why these baker's why this case there are dozens of examples daily where muslim staff at supermarkets will refuse to handle pork or alcohol and no one cares. Is it ok for them to do that in a service orientated business where anyone with a mid range double IQ knows if you get a job at Sainsbury's or Tesco you will be dealing with alcohol and pork.

Either apply the law equally to everyone or not at all none of this modern bs picking and choosing as it suits.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

The muslim thing is bogus and they know it, it's not haram to consume pork or alcohol - holding it in it's packaging is not the same thing, and they know it.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I think both sides were up for this fight because otherwise there were many more paths of lesser effort for this to take than to be at the Supreme Court.

Maybe because is this because the law is applied at a business level and not at an indivdual level. In Sainsbury's or Tesco someone else will be available to sell you the product whereas in this case the shop itself refused to service them. If the bakers had said they personally couldn't do it but they'll get another member of staff to do so instead then there wouldn't be a problem.

Unless the law is different in N.Ireland.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

. Yes i know a friend told me this years ago but I've had staff do it to me as well as seen it done to others. The courts won't agree but i believe and have seen nothing to change my belief that this bakery was targeted to make a point and I don't blame the owner's feeling a little aggrieved by the whole thing.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Where does it say that?

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I've heard that before, I agree with him about the animal rights lobby being all over it to, guess they prefer easy targets to. I'll Google the answer for you Andrew seeing as you're busy, you're welcome :)


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/halal-and-kosher-slaughter

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

It’s not the law that it should not be given to non Muslims (or Jewish people I guess) but that they should be the intended audience even if other people no doubt end up eating it. It’s certainly not illegal if at the point of sale they serve a someone who isn’t Muslim.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I do agree with your sentiments, entirely. Unfortunately, the fact remains that they broke the law. That is the madness of the era we are living in.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Non-Muslims are not eating halal slaughtered meat by choice, they don't get a choice in the first place. Eg Schoolchildren are fed halal meat regardless of whether are Muslim and if a council tries to change that, Muslims kick up a big fuss an d the council gives in.

Link
And surprise, surprise.
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The LAW says it's inhumane.

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How many more examples do you need?

The law is being broken on a truly industrial scale and nothing is being done about it.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

For 4% of the population it's amazing the power they wield and sorry but halal meat is cruel and sets back the animal welfare advances we have made in the UK. Halal meat should be a niche product not a mainstream one and it should be highlighted prominently on packaging as I don't want to purchase any meat slaughtered in that way.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

What law are you referring too? You've offered a slew of stories there and I cannot read each one to get to the heart of the issue you're complaining about.

My reading of the 'guidance' that has been previously posted is that all the slaughter houses would need to prove is that they're intending to supply places which will serve Muslims but not exclusively Muslims. In the example of schools if those schools had Muslim students then that would probably qualify.

If you saying these schools should offer a choice then ok but that's not really the issue I was addressing. I was saying it's not illegal to serve Halal meat to non-Muslims.

Of what? You seem to think I am making a different point to that which I am making....

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Wonder if the school ever serves pork? Muslim pupils could have the veggie option. But this is a little different to the original case and conversation and it's likely pupils don't have an option to eat elsewhere.

The topic is that the baker feel victimised and I think that they have been. It may be a legal victimisation but it's still ruling that their faith position is now not legal.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

It's not ruling that their faith position is illegal but that they weren't entitled to refuse a gay couple the service they provide based on their faith.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Halal meat should be banned in this country, full stop. There is no justification for treating animals in this way, and incidentally, the Koran does not require it. This is just another case of religious fanatics making up the rules as they go along.

They will be wanting to bring back crucifixions next on the basis of 'well, that's what they did back in the day".

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

They would have to ban Kosher meat as well if they did that.

Some Halal meat is stunned (electrically, not with a bolt gun) before slaughter - I don't know why that can't be standard.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If you break the law, you will be prosecuted, tweetiepooh.

You can't argue that your 'faith' made you commit the offence!

Incidentally, I have little sympathy with either party, to tell the truth. They both sound pretty objectionable to me.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I'm not questioning that breaking the law means you may get punished but that the law is punishing them for their faith. In this case they were not making a statement against the customer (I hate you) but refusing to support a statement made by the customer (support gay marriage) and there is a key difference here.