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Carth 14-01-2022 16:17
Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Extinction Rebellion: Jury clears protesters dragged off train roof

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59996870

Quote:
Two climate change activists who sat on the roof of a rush-hour train in east London have been cleared of obstructing a carriage on the railway.

The Rev Sue Parfitt, 79, and Fr Martin Newell, 54, were dragged off the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) carriage at Shadwell station on 17 October 2019.

A third activist, Philip Kingston, 85, superglued his hand to the train.
Quote:
The verdict comes after four people were recently cleared of criminal damage over toppling the statue of slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol and throwing it in the harbour.
Quote:
Last month, the Anglican priest admitted she was "surprised" to avoid jail for blocking the M25.

She was one of seven members of Insulate Britain who were handed suspended sentences for breaching an injunction and being in contempt of court. Two others were jailed.
Oh well, at least it will make anyone thinking of doing similar sit up and take notice of the possible consequences :rofl:

papa smurf 14-01-2022 16:18
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
That's jury trials finished then.

Mad Max 14-01-2022 16:31
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
A third activist, Philip Kingston, 85, superglued his hand to the train.
It's a pity the driver etc hadn't seen that and just took off.:p:

TheDaddy 14-01-2022 17:32
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36109557)
That's jury trials finished then.
Probably replaced by Sue Grey investigates...

nomadking 14-01-2022 18:11
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Does that mean we can all behave like that to things we object to? Or is it yet another in the long list of principles that are only selectively applied?:rolleyes:

Hugh 14-01-2022 18:20
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109583)
Does that mean we can all behave like that to things we object to? Or is it yet another in the long list of principles that are only selectively applied?:rolleyes:
No - neither case has set a precedent.

If you behave the same way, if you’re arrested & charged, you’ll face a jury of your peers just like these people did. After that, it’s up to the jury.

nomadking 14-01-2022 18:25
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36109585)
No - neither case has set a precedent.

If you behave the same way, if you’re arrested & charged, you’ll face a jury of your peers just like these people did. After that, it’s up to the jury.
Juries are meant to decide things on the basis of LAW, not what they pick and choose. Would you like your fate to be based upon what a jury liked or disliked?:rolleyes:

Hugh 14-01-2022 18:30
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109587)
Juries are meant to decide things on the basis of LAW, not what they pick and choose. Would you like your fate to be based upon what a jury liked or disliked?:rolleyes:
I answered your question - you can’t copy their behaviour without the likelihood of being charged.

Sephiroth 14-01-2022 18:32
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36109585)
No - neither case has set a precedent.

If you behave the same way, if you’re arrested & charged, you’ll face a jury of your peers just like these people did. After that, it’s up to the jury.
Postcode jury, then.

Hugh 14-01-2022 18:33
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36109590)
Postcode jury, then.
No more than any other jury trial…

nomadking 14-01-2022 18:37
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
But being charged in the first place can depend on whether the CPS consider that a jury would convict you.

Paul 14-01-2022 18:56
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36109585)
If you behave the same way, if you’re arrested & charged, you’ll face a jury of your peers just like these people did. After that, it’s up to the jury.
These days its up to what twitter etc tells the jury.

OLD BOY 14-01-2022 19:04
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
I have no problem with the right to demonstrate. But it should be unlawful to impede people from going about their lawful business.

Hugh 14-01-2022 19:09
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109595)
But being charged in the first place can depend on whether the CPS consider that a jury would convict you.
Erm, that statement is not congruent with actuality, for a number of reasons.

A) In the two cases being discussed, the CPS decided to prosecute - by your "logic", they would not have done that.

B) One of our best friends (known them nearly 40 years, god-parents to each others’ children, go on holiday with them once or twice a year (three times this year, making up for last year :D)), is a Regional Crown Prosecutor for the CPS - she points out that they decide to prosecute based on two stages
Quote:
Does the evidence provide a realistic prospect of conviction? That means, having heard the evidence, is a court more likely than not to find the defendant guilty? And;

Is it in the public interest to prosecute? That means asking questions including how serious the offence is, the harm caused to the victim, the impact on communities and whether prosecution is a proportionate response.
She also pointed out that since they don’t know who would be in the Jury for any given case, how could they judge if that jury would convict?

jfman 14-01-2022 19:30
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36109604)
I have no problem with the right to demonstrate. But it should be unlawful to impede people from going about their lawful business.
Rubbish.

All the best civil disobedience involves some destruction.

nomadking 14-01-2022 19:50
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36109606)
Erm, that statement is not congruent with actuality, for a number of reasons.

A) In the two cases being discussed, the CPS decided to prosecute - by your "logic", they would not have done that.

B) One of our best friends (known them nearly 40 years, god-parents to each others’ children, go on holiday with them once or twice a year (three times this year, making up for last year :D)), is a Regional Crown Prosecutor for the CPS - she points out that they decide to prosecute based on two stages

She also pointed out that since they don’t know who would be in the Jury for any given case, how could they judge if that jury would convict?
The question is what would the CPS do with another similar case? The precedent set by the juries now there.

jfman 14-01-2022 19:53
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Make better choices with the 4 folk they kick off in jury selection.

Carth 14-01-2022 20:56
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
I'm lucky in that I've never been called for Jury Service, never wanted it and would probably end up in prison myself if they pushed the issue :D

Apparently some people love it though :shrug:

TheDaddy 14-01-2022 20:57
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109587)
Juries are meant to decide things on the basis of LAW, not what they pick and choose. Would you like your fate to be based upon what a jury liked or disliked?:rolleyes:
They did decide the statue case based on law, I forget the legal term but criminal damage isn't a cut and dried crime, the jury had room to manoeuvre, an example would be smashing a car window on a hot day because you think a baby or dog is in danger

Mad Max 14-01-2022 21:02
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36109622)
They did decide the statue case based on law, I forget the legal term but criminal damage isn't a cut and dried crime, the jury had room to manoeuvre, an example would be smashing a car window on a hot day because you think a baby or dog is in danger


So who was in danger when those idiots pulled the statue down?

nomadking 14-01-2022 21:08
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36109622)
They did decide the statue case based on law, I forget the legal term but criminal damage isn't a cut and dried crime, the jury had room to manoeuvre, an example would be smashing a car window on a hot day because you think a baby or dog is in danger
Nonsense, so you're saying that somebody could smash a car window the minute they left the vehicle, however briefly?:rolleyes:

Mad Max 14-01-2022 21:09
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109624)
Nonsense, so you're saying that somebody could smash a car window the minute they left the vehicle, however briefly?:rolleyes:
Exactly.

nomadking 14-01-2022 21:17
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36109625)
Exactly.
What imminent danger was there in leaving the car for a few minutes?
Are we all now allowed to come up with what is a danger, and damage buildings connected to slavery? Or is it only certain ones?:mad:

Hugh 14-01-2022 21:36
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109613)
The question is what would the CPS do with another similar case? The precedent set by the juries now there.
No, it’s not - juries don’t set precedents.

You are assuming that all the juries in every different part of the country would act the same way - this is not likely.

You may find this barrister’s review of the verdict informative (or may not) - my friend (the Regional CPS) said it was a reasoned, and reasonable, document; they has over 35 years criminal law experience, so, if you don’t mind, I’ll take their informed view over yours…

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/...u-should-know/

Quote:
Does this create a precedent? Does it mean that anybody can now pull down a statue of somebody they don’t like without consequence?

No. And no. Jury verdicts create no precedent in law. If a case with exactly the same facts were tried tomorrow by a different jury, that jury would be entitled to convict. If you pull down a statue, and the Crown Prosecution Service conclude that there is evidence to support a charge of criminal damage and that it is in the public interest to prosecute you, you will be prosecuted for criminal damage. You will then be at liberty to plead not guilty and to be tried by a jury of your peers, during which you would be tried according to the same standards and under the same law as the Colston 4. Whether you would be convicted, and, if so, what your sentence would be, would entirely depend on the facts and circumstances proved by the evidence. There is never a guaranteed outcome with a jury trial.

TheDaddy 14-01-2022 22:19
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36109624)
Nonsense, so you're saying that somebody could smash a car window the minute they left the vehicle, however briefly?:rolleyes:
Are you a QC? That's the example one used the other day to explain how the jury lawfully came to their decision but as ever you know best :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 22:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36109623)
[/B]
So who was in danger when those idiots pulled the statue down?
That's not what was said, what was said is the jury had wriggle room as opposed to drink driving where you either are or you aren't

Pierre 15-01-2022 09:20
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36109611)
Rubbish.

All the best civil disobedience involves some destruction.
Got to agree with JFman, if you don’t make enough of a scene to get what you’re protesting over noticed then what is the point.

That has to balanced with, if you’re stopping somebody from earning their wage be prepared to get a slap and dragged out the way.

I would add, and if unlawful be prepared to be arrested but as we saw with ‘insulate the middle class’. The police are more like to offer you a cup of tea rather than handcuffs.

Carth 15-01-2022 12:30
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Would the 'verdict' have been different if they were young and black, or maybe even white tattooed skin heads instead of some doddery old folk with no library to got to?

:devsmoke:

Hugh 15-01-2022 12:55
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36109690)
Would the 'verdict' have been different if they were young and black, or maybe even white tattooed skin heads instead of some doddery old folk with no library to got to?

:devsmoke:
And what if the jury had been young and black, or maybe even white tattooed skin heads - would the verdict* have been different?

How do you know the jury wasn’t made up of those people?

*verdict, not ‘verdict’… ;)

Carth 15-01-2022 14:50
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36109692)
And what if the jury had been young and black, or maybe even white tattooed skin heads - would the verdict* have been different?

How do you know the jury wasn’t made up of those people?

*verdict, not ‘verdict’… ;)
Oh yes, I agree with what you say, it all comes down to the 'opinion' of the jury.

Although I'm of the opinion that the same jury would have been less lenient against 'younger' offenders . . . opinions eh ;)

papa smurf 02-09-2022 17:24
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Here we go again
Extinction Rebellion protesters storm Commons and superglue themselves to Speaker's chair

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...climate-change

heero_yuy 02-09-2022 17:27
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Leave them there for a few days wallowing in their own excrement. Parliament is in recess so no problem.:D

Julian 02-09-2022 17:59
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
White, middle class terrorists in action again.

If they were so bothered about the planet they wouldn't have left Reading in that state after their drugfest.

I'm sure plod will be along shortly to give them some water and dance for them.

papa smurf 23-09-2022 08:22
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
UK climate activists held in jail for up to six months before trial


Climate campaigners arrested on suspicion of blocking roads or other offences are waiting up to six months in prison before being tried.

Josh Smith, a 29-year-old stonemason from Manchester, has been held on remand in HMP Peterborough for more than two months.

His court date is not set until 1 February, meaning he will have been incarcerated for half a year before any sentence may be imposed.

Smith, who is one of at least seven people being held long-term in prison awaiting trial, says the one positive about his position is that people seem more receptive to his message about the climate crisis.


Oh dear how terrible for them, it's such a nuisance when your detained and can't go about your daily business .

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-before-trial

Pierre 23-09-2022 11:21
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36134745)
UK climate activists held in jail for up to six months before trial


Climate campaigners arrested on suspicion of blocking roads or other offences are waiting up to six months in prison before being tried.

Josh Smith, a 29-year-old stonemason from Manchester, has been held on remand in HMP Peterborough for more than two months.

His court date is not set until 1 February, meaning he will have been incarcerated for half a year before any sentence may be imposed.

Smith, who is one of at least seven people being held long-term in prison awaiting trial, says the one positive about his position is that people seem more receptive to his message about the climate crisis.


Oh dear how terrible for them, it's such a nuisance when your detained and can't go about your daily business .

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-before-trial
Good

Sirius 23-09-2022 12:39
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36134745)
UK climate activists held in jail for up to six months before trial


Climate campaigners arrested on suspicion of blocking roads or other offences are waiting up to six months in prison before being tried.

Josh Smith, a 29-year-old stonemason from Manchester, has been held on remand in HMP Peterborough for more than two months.

His court date is not set until 1 February, meaning he will have been incarcerated for half a year before any sentence may be imposed.

Smith, who is one of at least seven people being held long-term in prison awaiting trial, says the one positive about his position is that people seem more receptive to his message about the climate crisis.


Oh dear how terrible for them, it's such a nuisance when your detained and can't go about your daily business .

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-before-trial
I have no problem with this, he will have time to ponder over the disruption he created to the public and protentionaly the emergency services

Paul 23-09-2022 20:35
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36134745)
Climate campaigners arrested on suspicion of blocking roads or other offences are waiting up to six months in prison before being tried.
Serves them right.

idi banashapan 23-09-2022 20:41
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 36134785)
I have no problem with this, he will have time to ponder over the disruption he created to the public and protentionaly the emergency services
He might have time to, but very much doubt he will. It will likely strengthen a feeling of righteous indignancy, adding more fuel to the belief that society is wrong and his cause is right. it's no deterent in real terms.

Sirius 24-09-2022 08:32
Re: Extinction Rebellion Protesters Cleared
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idi banashapan (Post 36134819)
He might have time to, but very much doubt he will. It will likely strengthen a feeling of righteous indignancy, adding more fuel to the belief that society is wrong and his cause is right. it's no deterrent in real terms.
Well at least he is in the correct place to temporally stop him from creating havoc for now. If i had my way he would receive a longer and longer jail sentence every time he was found guilty for blocking roads, but of course that will not sit well with some who will see him as a hero.


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