HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Mod edit (Chris): These posts have been split out of the 20mph thread as it’s clear HS2 is going to require a thread of its own once the inevitable announcement is made in Manchester tomorrow.

A man with so much political nous he's flying to Manchester to tell those northern plebs why they don't need a high speed rail link to Lpndon. :rofl:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Rishi seems not be sure about HS2 this morning. . He used to be indecisive but now he's not so sure....

Prob wait till he's safely flown back to civilisation and tweet it next week to the northern plebs.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

If he doesn’t pull off a massive bait and switch then he’s more of an idiot than I give him credit for.

Al this talk of scrapping HS2 to Manchester, while he’s in Manchester.

He’ll stand up on that podium and say, a conservative government will guarantee Manchester is connected blah blah levelling up blah blah. That’s what I’d do!

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If he had to announce it at the conference, it should have been at the start to remove speculation until formal announcement.

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tbf, Pierre has made a good point - it would cut the legs off of all those saying he/the Tories don’t care about the North…

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He is obviously going to say the money is going elsewhere, it's just how realistic and credible it is. If it's something else that requires years of consultation then it's meaningless.

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Good for Tory donor consultancies who get to trouser even more taxpayer's money for delivering nothing.

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I agree with you and Pierre that announcing it in Manchester is a poor look. But if he had to announce it at the conference, getting it out of the way first would have been preferable to the current situation.

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Trouble is to be meaningful, the infrastructure projects are probably going to be of the scale to require consultation and the pay off won't be quick.

Another side to this is the UK is running out of work for its train-builders and a delayed and shortened HST could result in redundancies.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Looks like HS2 will go to Manchester but will run on normal tracks after Birmingham. What's the point honestly?

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So not High Speed then?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

High Speed between London and Birmingham only.

It's just managed decline. Europe has managed a lot of high-speed rail and we give up even trying to get it to Manchester when we originally wanted it to go to Scotland. Complete failure and incompetence.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Utter, utter boneheaded stupidity from a spoiled little rich boy who simply hasn’t the faintest idea how the country works, and genuinely seems to think he can prove his skill at making long-term decisions by making precisely the same Treasury-driven, short sighted cuts that has blighted British infrastructure projects for decades.

If Keir Starmer has an ounce of political nous he will immediately promise to reinstate HS2 as soon as there’s a Labour government. Sadly I think he’s rather too fond of equivocation and will manage to slice the ball right over this wide open goal and into the pie shop at the back of the stand.

The depth of government ineptitude on display here is completely and utterly depressing. How is it possible for a room full of highly educated people to be so utterly crap at everything?

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

HS2 is stopping at Nottingham (apparently) but TBH, I really do not care if it does or doesnt.
Its not like its going to save huge amounts of time, plus it will be expensive (as all rail travel is these days, and has been for a long time).

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

The problem is though that Europe embraced the TGV's 360kph standards that we also used for HS1. We have gold plated this for HS2 and gone for 400kph. That has doubled costs already with no upper limit in sight just to shave a few extra minutes off the trip. :rolleyes:

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

One of HS2's underlying problem was its name. It was and is all about capacity building but was marketed as speed.

That left it vulnerable to the obvious evaluation of the billions spent v the time savings.

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HS2 is 360 km/h (225 mph) not 400 km/h (250 mph).

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

The problem with HS2 is that people at each end want it but people in the middle don't. And with a small island like ours there are lot of in between places that don't really benefit and are adversely affected.


With big countries it's easier to go around those middle places but not so here. Or those middle places are far enough apart to warrant being included in the route.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

The problem with the people in the middle is they’ve never accepted that it’s the big cities that move the economy whose output they benefit from. ‘I don’t benefit from this railway line because I can’t travel on it’ is typical of the narrow minded nature of public discourse in this country.

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Sunak has just delivered the relevant section of his speech. He now says the ‘Network North’ supposedly to be built instead will enable travellers “to get from Manchester to the new station in Bradford in 30 minutes. Sheffield in 42 minute, and to Hull in 84 minutes on a fully, electrified line." Which would be grand, if it ever got built. But as of right now, how do we know that in 3 years he won’t claim the “facts have changed” and what he’s proposing now won’t get scaled back, delayed or cut again? These are just pretty words from a Tory Prime Minister to a Tory conference hall full of people who know they’ll have to move heaven and earth not to lose the forthcoming election, but don’t really know how.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

What rarely gets discussed is what other projects £100B could be spent on that would have far more "bang for buck" e.g. FTTH for each house in the country, like Macron is doing in Frame by 2025. There are many other examples of course.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

The thing is, Frame already has a lot of high speed rail, and has done for decades. :D

I have to admit I’m surprised how fizzing mad I am about all this. Over many years, I’ve gone from supporting the Conservative Party, to giving them the benefit of the doubt, to refusing to support Labour under Corbyn. But I’m now right out of reasons to go on giving my vote to this self-interested shower of charlatans.

All the Tory Party will have achieved by the time the line opens is to have extended the north London commuter belt to Milton Keynes. Given how much of it they buried underground to keep their shire voters happy, they might as well hand it over to TfL and let people ride it with their Oyster cards.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Yes but you assuming that case for HS2 at the price point it has, is compelling whereas I do not. I do not believe many business folk travel by train enough to make a difference when more & more business is done online.

The only grey area is the impact on freight but I am sceptical believe it will even scratch the surface in recouping the outlay.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

France by the way is also doing the Grand Paris Express, an outer loop rail for Paris to connect the suburbs and reduce the need to travel through the city to get to the other side.

Not saying we need something like that for London but it's a sign that some countries just do things rather than spend decades debating it, and start building it before canceling it and framing it as a 'brave decision'.

I am not even especially bothered about HS2. It's not something I would use much. I was just happy we were actually building something for once.

I.E They've been talking of a new crossing in Dartford for about 10 years now. Maybe more. The Dartford Crossing always has long delays now because it simply cannot cope and the idea was to alleviate the fright traffic from Dover/Folkstone by creating a new crossing they would use without having to hit the M25 until they were north of the river. It's always 'out for consultation'.

We measure infrastructure projects in human lifetimes at this rate. Our ancestors used to do that for cathedrals they were building by hand, we do that to build a poxy bridge.

That's also why all this talk of alternative projects is just talk. He will get applauded from the true believers but those people will never, ever, see those projects because the same thing will happen again. They will consult, which will take years, then there will be legal challenges because somebody's allotment is in the way or the hypothetical noise from construction bothers some NIMBYs in a village two miles away from the construction site, 10-20 years later construction might start at 5x the proposed budget before some twerp who is currently a 17-year-old aspiring SPAD has become PM and cancels the whole thing.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

We will water down broadband ambitions too. Satellite broadband will give the rural plebs "just enough" to participate in the digital economy.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Just noticed .. "Frame" :D :D Nice ..

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

They're going to reduce the lines into Euston: https://twitter.com/diamondgeezer/st...DHyeS1v-Ce0Szw

This effectively salts the earth to ensure Labour can't u-turn this decision and continue. The land needed for the additional lines to support further expansion will be sold and built upon.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Knowing the Tories they'll sell it to Stanley Johnson, Matt Hancock's pub landlord and a venture capitalist company based in the EU advised by JRM. Force the next Government to quickly buy it back for a quick profit.

Easy money for some crony or another.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Well, Rishi did say there would be "long-term planning"…

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

You mean short term political expendiency.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

I'd do some short term planning if I were him, like where in the States he'll be moving to next year. Will he be able to take the swimming pool?

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

The good news is that the Conservatives will find it hard to rail about cancel culture. :D

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We are just not efficient in this country. Look at France. They know what they are doing.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

A good point: they know what they want, in terms of what is best for their country and their society, and they just get it done.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

They've a more space and far less planning restrictions. Plus we couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Italys equivalent of HS2 is fantastic for getting up and down the country quickly but it's the right nice long shaped country for it. We're too small, particularly if it's just London to Birmingham. Pointless.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news...ytale-27848664

In related news

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/202...nine-years-ago

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Anyone who thinks half the things in that document will ever happen needs their bumps felt. It’s a mixture of things that have already been built, things they have no intention of building, and things they might like to build but don’t have planning permission for, or indeed money to do within the next 10 years.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Where’s OB hiding these days?

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

I was referring above to Infrastructure where they seem to be so far ahead of us. It is not just geography that helps them, they seem to value their "French-ness" over and above what things cost.

Ironically, we value our society less and end up paying more!

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Looks like the Birmingham to London commuter line once known as HS2 will end at Old Oak Common unless the private sector can help fund the extension to Euston.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67021225

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Probably waiting for the government to finish deleting even more of its Network North commitments before braving this thread.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Time to finally build that East Coast motorway, for a lot less than HS2.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

He is stuck on the 1135 just outside Clapham Junction.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

There must be a reason why this has gone so badly wrong. The government put up the money and agreed the project, but it’s the civil servants whose responsibility it is to get the specification for the contract right and to set performance measures, and it is also their job to ensure those performance measures (which will include monitoring costs and the progress of the project) are met. This is what appears to have gone badly wrong.

Clearly, if the government changes requirements during the rollout of the project, any additional costs associated with that will be down to them, but those additional costs should be picked up and factored in. The shambles that we are seeing here are replicated in all the contract specifications and performance monitoring in the privatised industries. We should be employing people who actually understand what the hell they are doing when it comes to contract management.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

The Government that can do no wrong has it's excuse baked in every time at CCHQ. :rofl:

A special mention must surely be reserved for the consultancies trousering billions to provide such expertise because we've eroded the state so much there's none in the public sector. That, of course, was and remains a political choice.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

One small problem with your thesis re "civil servants" - High Speed Two (HS2) Limited is the company responsible for developing and promoting the UK’s new high speed rail network. It is funded by grant-in-aid from the government.

HS2 Ltd is an executive non-departmental public body; it's run by these people, none of whom are Civil Servants...

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

I believe the point was they would have screwed it up just as badly if the actual government had been another party ?

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

I believed the point was that OB was blaming Civil Servants, when it’s not run by Civil Servants…

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

If you been to France a few time, this is self evident. The tenacious preservation of their local shops e.g. boulangerie, etc. in the face of large, cheaper supermarkets, Their strange insistence on buying French cars, their preference to speak French to tourists, etc. I am sure there are many more examples

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Everyone knows what it means…

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

I think everyone does if they understand the French.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

I know what HS2 Ltd is, Hugh. The point is, they were appointed to carry out the project. But all contracts let by the government should be monitored to ensure they meet performance targets. The civil servants are responsible for that.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

The civil servants can monitor it but I doubt they're able to ensure construction projects don't go over budget due to inflation, unexpected issues, government constantly changing its mind, etc.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

It’s like when Man Utd or City make a bid for a lower league player, you can add another zero to the price tag.

Government projects = government money = taking the piss.

If it was a private investment scheme there would be more accountability and it would come in closer to budget.

But you would never get private investment in HS2 because it would never return on its investment because it was never needed.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

One has to wonder why the Secretaries of State for Transport (seven in the last thirteen years), Ministers, Parliamentary Under Secretaries, Non-Executive Board Members, SPADs (all political appointees) never picked up on any of the problems?

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

One of the problems according to the people who did HS1 was that the budget was announced so companies tendering had an idea of how much they could fleece the government for.

As for private investment, that's why the Government should do private infrastructure projects. If you evaluate each single project on how much return on investment you'll get from that specific project then nothing with the long-term in mind would ever get built.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

Interesting article on Spain's HS rail network:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-peoples-lives

This disproves the old trope that Public ownership means more money and minimal progress.

Re: HS2 and the future of British railways
 

We are so back ward thinking in this country for instance I live 4 miles from HS1 and this does not stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford International stations at the moment for some reason ... we also have an airport called Manston in the Thanet area, East Kent which should be have been developed and have a high speed link to the HS1 line.