[Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
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This raises lots of questions but for all those applauding away in the knowledge than electricity is cheaper than petrol and diesel, where do we think the massive revenue lost from duty and VAT on fuel is going to come from? How are all those people who live in streets where they can't park close to let alone outside their homes going to be able to charge their vehicles I wonder. How long's it going to take to develop the infrastructure required to support such a huge change? Has anyone thought this through? :shrug: |
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Heres to hopeing electric cars can do 600miles per charge like my diesel lol
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I do think some of that is very valid - where I live there is no way I could currently have an electric only car as it's parked too far away from my property.
However to be optimistic on it, we've got another 23 years. It's possible by that point that battery technology will have improved to a point where you can still go 'fill up', rather than every car needing to be plugged in when not in use. Or we may have efficient wireless charging that allows for more flexible charging options. http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/1303...r-over-the-air |
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given the national grid teeters on the brink of not been able to cope with present demand what will happen when millions of cars are plugged in charging , remember petrol and diesel have huge amounts of energy stored in them and do not feed off the grid
How much energy in… Cars kWh 1 litre Petrol 9.7 1 litre Diesel 10.7 1 litre Biodiesel 9.9 1 litre Kerosene 10.5 |
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One question I presume that power stations are more efficient than a car for generating power. |
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The UK: A 36% increase in generation and a 49% increase in installed capacity, costing $140 billion. |
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Won't be a problem when loads of houses have solar, more wind on the grid, and local grid battery storage. This issue has been thought of and solutions exist, they're just not in place yet but are growing in popularity.
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It seems likely to me that by 2040 cars will have gone electric and major centers will have self-driving cars.
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Yay! Can't come soon enough. In fact, we should ban all diesel and petrol engines in 5 years. Go electric! Go trams! Go Magdev! Go new BMW made in Britain mini! Go bikes!
We are winning :D! |
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"New" cars, not "old" cars, so when will they start the purge on existing petrol and diesel vehicles, i.e. taxing them more and more?
And diesel trains, just as they announce no electrification of certain routes? And home gas boilers and gas cookers? And gas powered power stations? And vegan cyclists farting along the roads? |
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we could bring back the death penalty for cycling |
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yes the future looks bright
the moon base colony on mars warp drive fusion power stations world hunger up due to planet covered in solar panels anyway must go i need to shovel some more coal into the stove ;) |
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It's all good news; ignore Papa Luddite :) |
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I do think 2040 is unambitious. To be honest I think it's a fudge that the government knows requires little effort on their part. Sort of like setting a news year resolution to eat more, gonna happen anyway.
I think 2025 is a good target to hit to be honest. Most car manufacturers are looking at electric engines. You could say new cars by 2025(ish) have to be electric but allowing 2nd hand cars. 2040 should be the target for the banning of petrol based cars from the roads entirely. Under the current goal someone could buy a petrol based car on December 31st 2039 and drive it for more than 10 years. (although as I said I think it's unlikely to be easy to find such a car by 2030s). |
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Aside from the massive problems of having enough electricity to charge all these cars, what about the batteries ? To use a phrase, lithium does not grow on trees. Its doubtful there is enough to actually make (and keep replacing) all the required batteries.
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If you go back 23 years than most batteries weren't Lithium based as far as I know. I'd think most in electronic use were based on Nickel (Ni-Cd or Ni-MH).
So I hope we have a similar movement to a different battery technology that is sustainable. |
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So we are basing out entire transport system on a hope ? :erm:
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Im actually at the point now of giving serious thought to trading in my rather thirsty (but much fun) V10 for a Tesla model S
Plenty of charging points nr where i work and a charging point in my house (which the previous owner had fitted free by the government) My petrolhead fix is still met by the bikes ---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ---------- Quote:
You could argue that the world is already over populated.... |
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We're pretty much completely reliant on the internet and related technologies for our society to work. That wasn't the case 23 years ago. And that's happened without any plan.
So I don't see if being a problem to specifically state an aim to move away from a technology in quite a long timeframe. |
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There's not much pleasure left in driving these days and having to worry about running out of juice only detracts further from what little is left. I might consider buying a hybrid vehicle at some point but can't foresee a time when I'd want to rely purely on battery power. |
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But it's sensible to plan ahead on the assumption that, in 23 years time, battery technology will be better than it is now. And the technology we have now can power sports cars. It's already feasible to own and operate electric cars in the UK. It will get even better, especially if the government is throwing it's weight behind it. We need better batteries and faster charging but Tesla have made a lot of progress in only 5 years here and we've given ourselves a timeline of 23 years. What's more is that it's the direction the industry is moving with more and more manufacturers moving their models to electric engines. |
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God forbid we have any power cuts and can't charge our vehicles eh? |
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You owe it to yourself to remove your 'Remoaner' title. You are forward-thinking and positive and not trapped in the past. |
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I find it all very confusing! Notability told us to get a diesel instead of petrol. Not sure if it makes that much difference now though.
I did look at the Nissan Leaf when I got my car but the range was crap. |
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If you let in well over a million people what do you think is going to happen with pollution and everything else.:rolleyes: Then there is the added pollution of shipping their own specific food items into the country. We've imported pollution from eastern Europe.
Even if say the UK manages, the development of petrol/diesel cars & vans will effectively be killed off fairly soon, so how are other countries going to manage? Is the EU going to prop them up over that as well? |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40352884 Quote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...020-say-nissan Quote:
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https://www.theguardian.com/business...l-macron-volvo So I'd expect most other EU countries to follow. Volvo have already announced they're going electric only, and they're owned by the Chinese, so China is also moving in that direction. ---------- Post added at 15:24 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ---------- Oh and I've just seen this - Autoexpress reckon it won't include a ban on hybrids http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...-ban-from-2040 |
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But as more and more cars move to electric engines we'll see more stations pop-up. Petrol stations could provide them. It will at some stage hit a tipping point where they're suddenly springing up everywhere. We got 3G and 4G networks up in 16 years. Yes at the moment having to 'rely totally' on them isn't realistic but we're not talking about banning petrol cars tomorrow, we're talking about banning them in 23 years. Quote:
Can petrol stations actually work with no electricity now? Isn't it required for the tracking of the dispensing of the fuel and the payment of it? |
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Maybe alright for France with its Nuclear power, but how are countries like Estonia, Latvia, Romania etc going to manage. Quote:
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https://www.theguardian.com/environm...arging-network Latvia: http://eng.lsm.lv/article/economy/ec...-plan.a153355/ Romania: https://www.romania-insider.com/char...100000-people/ |
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How are charging points at motorway service stations (and garages) going to help.
Filling up with petrol takes a few minutes, recharging a car takes hours. At busy times you can barely find anywhere to park in a service station, how will they cope with 1000's per day. How will local garages work, a few early starters and thats it for the day ? (not to mention how long journeys would become). |
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At the moment people generally only fill up their car at petrol stations. You fill up, then go away keeping the occasional eye on the tank until you need to fill up again. But electric cars can be charged at home and also could be charged at car parks, work places, shopping centres etc. I have seen far more car chargers in car parks than dedicated stations. People will find themselves charging at home, at a hotel, or in car parks whilst shopping or working. Stations would be for quick top-ups or people taking long journeys. But battery technology will get better and so will charing times. Again, look at the progress Tesla have made. It's not perfect now but do we need to wait until it is before we make plans 20 years ahead? The wheels are already turning here, more and more cars are coming out with electric engines, the investment is in electric and self-driving cars and that's where governments are looking too. To be honest I think 2040 is conservative. I think we'll be seeing electric, self-driving, cars in common use around urban areas by then. 23 years is a long time in technology. Imagine in 1994 telling someone that people could stream TV content made exclusively for an Internet company to a phone they had in their hands. Think of all the logistical and technological, not to mention commercial, barriers that would have been foreseen. The advances is mobile technology, battery technology, networks and so on for that and all the infrastructure to go with it. |
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What the future holds:
1. Aircraft (the biggest polluters what about their fuel supply) as passenger airliners would be out of question. Giant Airships could be used I suppose. http://company.airbus.com/responsibi...-aircraft.html 2. Lorries. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/bmw-4...electric-truck 3. Motorcycles (new ones can be made to be electric) but not the old classic bikes and cars for that matter. http://charged.io/best-electric-motorcycles/ Then again we will have install solar panels on every house and our own mini wind turbine in the garden (if you have one) to produce electricity. |
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so lands end to john o'groats how many days will that take |
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and once we go electric first class post will be about 10 days depending on queues at the plug socket :rofl:
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Type Laminated lithium-ion battery Voltage 403.2V [1] Nominal voltage 360V [2] Total capacity 24 kWh [2] (16 kWh available, 67% DoD [3], 21 kWh declared [4]) Power output Over 90 kW Energy density 140 Wh/kg [5] Power density 2.5 kW/kg [5] Dimensions 61.8 x 46.8 x 10.4 in. (1570.5 x 1188 x 264.9 mm) [1] Weight 648 lbs [6] Number of modules 48, each with four cells (total 192 cells) [7][2] Battery pack contents: Positive electrodes: lithium manganate Negative electrodes: carbon Cells Modules Assembly parts Charging times: Quick charger DC50kW (0 to 80%): approx. 30 min (Level 3 charging) Home-use AC240V charging dock (0-100%): 8 hrs (Level 2 charging) [8] Regular 110/120V 15-amp outlet: 22 hours (Level 1 charging) [9] Battery layout Under seat & floor oh yes very practical lugging 648 lbs of lithium battery around |
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Are electric cars progress? I think so. I think for the most part they'll match fuel cars in every aspect but the speed of refuelling but that will be negated by the ability to charge in far more places whilst the car is parked and better battery technology. I think by 2025-2030 they'll be able to recharge hundreds of miles worth of electricity in a few minutes. I don't think they'll cost more/less than current cars. They'll come down in price when they're more common but the market will dictate the price and probably come down around the same as now plus inflation. But they'll beat fuel cars on being better for the environment and they'll allow more flexible energy policy as we wouldn't need to depend on oil specifically. Obviously that depends how we generate the electricity which is the bigger question here. We need to start building another nuclear power plant or two. From my understanding there is also less that can go wrong with an electric engine than a petrol one, no oil changes, less parts to break and so on. |
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We're well on the way already. Think what it could be like in 20 years after two decades of full time commitment from car and technology companies! |
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Electric automotive development is about to move in strides, we can be sure of that. |
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Advances in computing and electronic devices are very different, in that they don't have to do much physical work. Where physical work was involved, advances meant less physical work was required to achieve the same result, eg HDDs vs SSDs.
Propelling a vehicle for 100 miles with a family, coping with difficult terrain eg hills, difficult weather conditions eg snow, and possibly towing a caravan requires physical work, no matter what the propulsion system. There is absolutely no way around that. The amount of energy required to be transferred and stored in a battery is huge. The nearest thing would be a battery you could top up with pre-charged liquid. Not sure how safe that liquid would be to handle. It would be more "volatile" than petrol. The energy in petrol was locked in millions of years ago. Having to "generate" that amount of energy each day and having to distribute it down power lines is pretty much a non-starter. Then you've got to replace current gas usage. |
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Again though it's not as if we're talking about a hypothetical technology where. Electric engines power sports cars right now. Tesla may be at the cutting edge of electric car technology now but in a decade it will seem primitive to what we'll have then.
There seems to be a belief in this debate that it'll never catch on and/or the hurdles are too great for it but that seems to be missing the fact that it's already happening. Volvo will be electric only in just a few years. The only real hassle I see to a country full of electric cars is generating the energy to do so. But that is a sink or swim moment for the country anyway, we've needed to address this problem for over a decade and so we need more power plants and more renewable energy. Solar panels continue to get more and more efficient in terms of energy generated per panel. We're building one nuclear power plant, let's have more. The country has to stop saying 'No' to everything and acting as if we're a dying horrible nation in a state of managed decline. We need to address the issue of pollution and we need to address power supply. |
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We have few electric cars round here and I have noticed that they are completely silent so that should put up the accident rate. |
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So, you have an electric car and a driveway or garage with a power socket so you can recharge the car when not in use.
But what if you don't have a driveway? What if you have to hunt around the area every time you want to park at a kerbside? Will the streets of the country be lined with charging sockets? Or will pavements be strewn with leads from kerbs to gardens or houses? |
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https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/07/9.jpg I think we'll see cars with longer range and quicker charging times though so a charge in another car park will suffice for many. Although again I wonder if self-driving cars will reduce the amount of cars everywhere anyway. |
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i see a business opportunity here i buy a smelly old diesel truck with a big smelly diesel generator on the back and go around charging up these green machines i mean no one cares where the power comes from as long as it's in the tossler .:shrug:
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A cyclist-powered generator on call to any location? 24/7? Just call and they cycle up and pump out pedal-generated electricity whilst wearing lycra and pretending they are competing in the Tour de France?
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As others have states what ever powers new cars have to be as "friendly" to use as fuel in the "infernal combustion engine" (Harry Harrison).
1)Full "charge" in minutes in many places and fuel to remain good for a long while (no greater "leakage") 2)Range measures in many hundreds of km's 3)Reasonably compact - no good having all your storage taken up by "fuel". 4)Vehicle to perform similarly to current - sporty, pulling, handling, space, off road (whatever you use/choose in your car). 5)Easy to carry extra fuel - long distance/remote driving e.g. safari, exploration I'm not limiting to electric/battery as some other technology may present itself. |
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Buses use a great deal of energy with all the stopping and starting. Yet already there are experimental routes operating with electrically powered buses. I understand that while at the terminus for 5 minutes they pick up a booster charge from something hidden under the tarmac (nothing to plug in)
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We can only guess at what improvements to battery/charging technology and the cost thereof which may occur between now and whenever this happens but I think I can safely predict that our glorious leaders, the great and the good and their mates won't find themselves regularly in need of convenient charging facilities. Us mere taxpayers, on the other hand, will likely find ourselves scrabbling around trying to find communal charge points which a free and working when we actually need them. Will these be easy to find and cheap to use I wonder?... :rolleyes:
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A lot of the companies investing in self-driving cars are doing it for that. Uber's long term goal is to replace their human drivers with self-driving cars, the reason they're intentionally losing money to undercut other taxi services is to ensure they're dominate in the market when it happens. Google too have said this is their motivation for exploring self-driving cars. They've pointed how much land is wasted storing immobile cars. You would 'call' a car via a smartphone/speaker/watch/whatever which will take you to the location before shooting off to do another job. It would be far cheaper than a normal taxi because you've cut out the human element and can do it at scale. |
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Inductive charging. Cheers Dave |
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;) |
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Its pretty easy to charge for petrol/deisel, since its at a garage, monitored, and machines (pump or till) connected to the banks. Again, not the same as every lamppost. |
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Ford have been developing "wi fi" charging btw; apparently, induction charging as mentioned by Dave (GrimUpNorth) has been in use in S Korea for years. It's the future. |
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It's perfectly obvious that this thing hasn't been thought through and who's going to wind up paying the bill one way or the other? Cheap electric cars and transport for the masses? Yeah right! |
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Considering that most commuters (who use cars) travel between 10 and 100 miles per day, why not just charge them at home at night?
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According to THIShttps://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/06/electric-buses-london/ 36 electric buses going into service in London next year will run all day on an overnight charge.
Some existing routes boost the charge wirelessly at the terminus from apparatus under the tarmac. Presumably car parks and even roads where cars park could be so equipped. Perhaps people could pre pay a meter in their vehicle by credit card. |
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Local councils can't even keep up with repairing potholes let alone relaying entire roads nationwide with the necessary gubbins and what happens when utilities guy wants to dig up the road? |
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Well they have 20+ years to do it. Car manufacturers are moving to electric engines so either we get with it or we thrown up our hands and say it can't be done.
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Not sure if it has been mentioned but, imagine the fun the toerags will have pulling all the plugs from cars late at night if you have to plug them into lamposts by cable to charge for the people who do not have garages and drive ins.Walk out in the morning dead battery!.
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