Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I can't see Hoyle surviving this. By his actions, he looks biased, even if there were nobler intentions. So he's lost his authority in the Commons making him ineffective.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68362405

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Who need Sky Comedy when the Commons is setting?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The mother of all pantomimes.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Parliament at its worse.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The sad thing is, it was a performative vote on an issue they hold no sway over, and it had nothing to do with what's happening in Gaza, and everything to do with the internal politics of the Labour party.

Shameful.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I don’t have as much political nouse as others on here.

Why is this such a problem ?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

In one sentence “rules is rules - and they got thrown out the window”.

The established procedure was for the SNP to have a vote on their thing (the embarrassing bit for Labour) and then any subsequent amendments made.

Instead, it was hijacked by the Labour Party against the established procedures on frivolous grounds by the Speaker. Labour have had numerous opportunities in Parliament to say they want a ceasefire and declined to use the time allotted to them for this.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Cheers !

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

All irrelevant twaddle. If any of the rest of us got up and walked out on our jobs.. Load of prima donnas looking for any distraction from the crap job they're not doing.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Putting aside the apparent fiasco in Parliament could anyone tell me what would happen in Isreal should either the SNP or Labour proposals win votes?

I would think Naff-all.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Likewise if the Government passed a vote.

It doesn’t stop many pointless virtue signalling statements or motions, from Government or opposition parties, being made day in and day out in the chamber.

Indeed only yesterday Rishi Sunak, Sir Kier and Stephen Flynn all paid tribute to Russian dissident and probable western intelligence asset Alexei Navalny who, despite dying last week, is only marginally less likely to hold public office in the future than he was the week before last.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Labour certainly seem to have got up to some Parliamentary skullduggery yesterday but it's hard to feel sorry for the SNP who were playing their own games as well.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

It’s hardly “games” to use their allotted time to discuss an issue that they’ve been vocal about, in Holyrood and at Westminster, for months.

It’s one of biggest global issues at present and one that the SNP disagree fundamentally with the Government. The calendar may have given the SNP some luck.

The only games being played were by the Labour Party and the now discredited Speaker. The ability or otherwise of Starmer to have coherence among the members behind him should never be a factor in the Speaker hijacking the Parliamentary timetable under the guise of security threats. The last Labour opposition day was February 6th when they could have devoted time to this but elected not to.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Nice to see you spreading the Party line, tovarisch…

https://tass.com/politics/1207373

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

No other line worth peddling in that story, comrade.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The game is designing a motion that the Labour leadership can't vote for in the hope their backbenchers would rebel. If they wanted the motion to pass they could have addressed the concerns of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems to come up with a motion that had cross-party appeal. The Lib Dems tried to work with them, but the SNP rejected it.

All three parties were playing politics trying to cause issues for each other. The Tories and SNP were essentially trying to snooker Labour into an awkward position, the speaker bailed them out.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I think it’s disingenuous to suggest or imply the SNP were gaming the system to make things difficult for Labour.

The fact it was difficult for Labour is due to Starmer’s lack of backbone on the Israel issue - which has had shadow Ministers resign and was increasingly untenable. His need to qualify every statement to satisfy the pro-Israel lobby put him in that position and no-one else.

I agree the Speaker bailed them out however it was entirely improper for him to do so.

Would he do the same for Starmer as PM? I suggest we will never find out.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I am not saying they were 'gaming' the system. I am saying they designed a motion designed to trip Labour up which is why I don't feel a great deal of sympathy for them that it went wrong.

It was difficult for Labour because Labour wanted to include more onus on the fact that Hamas also have to abide by any ceasefire. If the SNP had included that and taken out of the collective punishment bit then Labour would have voted for the position. The Lib Dems pretty much asked for the same thing and were denied.

It's politics and all the parties play it.

The speaker shouldn't have selected Labour's motion but I am not buying the SNP's pearl-clutching here.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I’m not convinced a straightforward motion in line with their own stance calling for a ceasefire which the Government and opposition could then vote for or against is “designed” to do anything other than what it said on the tin.

I’m equally unconvinced that your dismissal of objecting to not following established process as “pearl clutching” is motivated by anything other than your own political bias.

The SNP aren’t obliged to water their motions down to suit the Labour Party or anyone else. The Speaker had a choice to follow established process or go rogue. He chose the latter. Labour and Hoyle have damaged our democratic institutions for no good reason other than to save Starmer from embarrassment. You might think that’s a worthwhile reason, I however do not.

I do agree all parties “play politics” however it was up to Starmer to find a way out within the rules, not to ride roughshod all over them.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The real issue is that Starmer interfered with and overtly influenced the supposedly impartial Speaker. Think of the situation in a court case, where either the prosecution or defence did that. If Starmer actually wanted to raise a point, then is should be made in the open and able to be criticised or possibly supported.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Or at it's best..

---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ----------

:tu:

---------- Post added at 08:42 ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 ----------

:tu:

---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 ----------

I'm frankly sick of the vast majority of all MPs supposedly representing their constituents but enjoying a nice comfy working lifestyle that their constituents would love to be available to them but find their daily circumstances decree otherwise.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Of course, it is.

If you're the third largest party and you genuinely want a motion to pass then you need to build cross-party consensus. The SNP knew, and were told, that a motion that didn't also mention that Israel has a right to defend itself and didn't condemn Hamas violence wasn't going to pass.

It was a motion designed to be defeated so they could grandstand after the fact.

They even left the chamber for the actual vote!

I agree with you that the Labour motion shouldn't have been selected and Labour were playing politics. I just disagree the SNP had pure intentions.

You seem to have a level of cynicism you suspend the moment the line being delivered to you is presented as an alternative take to the establishment. Labour/Tories bad, SNP Good. The West bad, Kremlin good.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Exactly this. The SNP motion had the term ‘collective punishment’ in it that no serious party of government or potential government could sign up to without some serious strong evidence. Basically, you don’t accuse nation states of war crimes unless you are really sure if you want to be taken seriously as a government.

The SNP only stood to gain from labour and indeed the Conservatives not voting for the motion from a political point of view.

It’s pretty shoddy using a desperate international situation to further your domestic political ambitions.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Red herring alert.

Whether the SNP motion was credible or otherwise is an irrelevance. 600 MPs could have stood there and voted it down, leaving Stephen Flynn howling into the abyss.

And it would have followed the correct process.

The SNP had the right to stand there and put forward a motion that the earth is flat, against all credible scientific evidence, should they so wish.

The rules were broken to give Starmer, and by proxy Israel, cover and deny the SNP their right to put their motion before Parliamentarians first.

The fact that a significant number of Labour MPs, and a small number of Conservatives have publicly said they would have voted for it suggests the accusations are not as incredible as you propose.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

It’s clearly giving Israel cover. Rather than discussing how many of our Parliamentarians are accusing them of collective punishment when they bomb hospitals or have snipers gun down children.

Instead we are discussing some relatively frivolous matter while Labour’s mealy mouthed proposal to semi-justify Israeli alleged war crimes went through on the nod following a Government boycott.

It makes a mockery of the process. Everyone knows it.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The SNP had the Parliamentary right to bring the motion. Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not. Convention is that if the Government brings an amendment, then no other opposition party amendment can be brought.
Starmer didn't openly bring the amendment, he just discussed it with the Speaker.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Too late - the party that unlawfully prorogued Parliament, imposed Voter ID laws when there was no need just to favour themselves, barred colleges and universities from registering their students to vote, brought in voting for emigrants who don't live in the UK*, taken away the Electoral Commission's independence and ability to prosecute, and extensively uses Henry VIII Statutory Instument powers allow ministers to make changes to not only secondary legislation but also primary legislation (Acts of Parliament), without having to go through the full process that an Act of Parliament would normally require to avoid scrutiny in Parliament, have been in power for 14 years...

*by Statutory Instrument, with no Parliamentary Scrutiny

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I’m not questioning the appropriateness - I’m here and active.

I’m only positing what would the news headlines have been had Hoyle done his job correctly and (in all likelihood) the SNP motion failed.

It’d have been how many MPs - specifically Labour MPs - backed it.

Some estimates had the number of potential Labour backers at 90. It’d have been how much authority does Starmer have over his party. Is his fence sitting tenable? Etc.

The Speaker handed out a big get out of jail free card, at the expense of the SNP and due process.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

:spin: imagine having the front to tell someone they're always wrong and using a proven lie to do it

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Opposition day is rarely about the opposition motion getting carried. Motions presented by minorities are by their nature unlikely to succeed. But that’s not the point of them. They are there to give voice to smaller parties and allow them to choose their topic, state their case and expose what they see as weaknesses in the positions of the other parties. They can do this effectively whether or not they win a vote at the end of it.

The conventions are there to protect that process as a whole and Lindsay Hoyle’s failure to trust processes that are bigger than him has been his undoing. His protestations of good intent don’t really stack up against his refusal to take advice, his refusal to ensure his clerks closely monitored events and advise the deputy speaker as she presided, and his inexcusable failure to be in the chamber while the whole debacle unfolded.

If this had been a momentary brain fart then there were multiple opportunities during the afternoon to change course but he seems to have decided he was bigger than events and wouldn’t be told. The risk that he will do so again when the chips are down rightly causes some MPs to lose confidence in him.

I think he has to go, and within a week he probably will.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

100% what Chris just said.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I may be two double gin and tonics deep on a Friday night but your first response reads like you’re justifying the conservatives behaviour by saying that at least they’re not like Hamas

Regardless, I think I need another Gin

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The Speaker will survive , regardless of whether he has the job or not, and still be on quite a good salary too.

Meanwhile back in Gaza, innocent people continue to die.
However if political points can be scored in blighty , who cares?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Innocent people continue to die in this country as well.
Three children murdered the other day, but yes, everyone would rather argue about politics. :(

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

There was no mob. There was Starmer.

Any suggestions of threats to safety came much, much later. There was no indication in his first statement, nor in correspondence from the clerk to indicate he had raised it with them.

He’s made a mess of it and blamed brown people. A tried and tested trope for the British establishment to deploy.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

He bowed to the baying Starmer and was given a means of escape but did not take it. His authority in the House is reduced and I'm amazed he's still in place.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The more I think about it he will try to stumble into the next election and Sir Keir hands him a peerage for a job well done.

Grubby.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The whole shambles was a political stage show. Which worked. Just think if it had passed , Israel would stopped its actively immediately. Face it the UK thinks it has a role to play in world affairs. Its doesn't, can't even launch a rocket.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Nobody claims it would have passed. Anyone who believes that is pertinent in any way is absolutely missing the point.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

:D

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

This is true, some older folks still think we're a 'super power'. Our influence is next to nothing now. We've made ourselves an irrelevant backwater, particularly since 2016.

Let's face it, we can't even manage healthcare for the population. We might get demoted from being a first world country. Maybe Ireland will send some aid if we're lucky...

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

You're sounding like Ian Paisley now ;)
NI is as good as gone, they've seen the light and the way the UK is going.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

More of your pathetic nonsense.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

What a short memory I have ,!

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

For someone like Hoyle to survive, you need your own competence or someone else's incompetence. Fortunately for Hoyle, Lee Anderson has delivered recently on the incompetence front helping Hoyle out with bags of cover.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I can think of plenty of words to describe him, but great isn't one of them.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Since he’s doubling down and going back on his word for an emergency debate he’s got to go.

One can only now conclude - if there was ever any doubt - it was about protecting Starmer.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

He’s still there.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

So is linear television. Both on borrowed time allegedly.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

That’s a bit of a topic stretch, even for you, jfman.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I bet linear tv lasts longer than the Speaker, and even me ;)

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

You do know that Galloway isn’t a Muslim, don’t you?

If you do, what’s your point?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

He didnt say he was, so I could ask the same question, whats your point ?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The point I was making is that why is Galloway being in Parliament proof that the cultures are incompatible?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Well, he is Muslim, when it suits him

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-galloway-have

And his current Indonesian/Dutch wife is Muslim and they were married in an Islamic ceremony in Amsterdam

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/154666...many-children/

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

"incompatible culture citizens"?

So, what differentiates Labour incompatible culture MPs from Tory incompatible culture MPs - they are all from the same culture?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

No, I don’t - I don’t have your paranoid Replacement Theory mindset…

You appear to be saying that all members of a group are equally culpable, but when I point out that some members of that group are Tory MPs, so are they equally culpable, and if not, why not?

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I think it's amazing that people think there's either too much immigration, too much extremism, both and think the answer is to vote Conservative. :rofl:

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I think the mainstream parties completely misread the feeling in the country, and now it's been proven in Rochdale. Didn't Rishi say the other day that if people were not happy they shouldn't use mob mentality but should use the ballot box? Seems to me that's just what's happened.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The state apparatus and the media - who have politicians in their pockets - will be working overtime to ensure the two party system endures.

Expect more and more scaremongering and scapegoating.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

You Brexiters won, get over it. ;)

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Says the Titanic.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

"Iceberg, what iceberg?"…

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Bethnal Green & Bow, Bradford West…

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Just in case we are interpreting differently what I posted, I’m stating Galloway just wants to shout and sow discord everywhere, and is just a single-term MP (at how many different constituencies now?) who stands for election at every single opportunity anywhere - he is not interested in his constituents or what they believe, he is just a self-promoting ideologue who will do nothing of note besides try to attract attention to himself…

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Agreed, the other parties should consider getting him onboard as an advisor as he's so much better at reading the mood of the voters than they are :shocked:.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Totally agree - nothing worse than politicians stirring up antipathy to others and stirring discord just to further their own aims, rather than trying to achieve things to help the country.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

There's a lot them about Hugh. There's Boris/Nigel/Trump. Its the in thing to be these days, get with it, the riff raff love it ;)

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Tell me you typed that with a smile on your face and your fingers crossed behind you back.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The only time chance to do anything was an MEP. Then he chose either to not turn up, or just disrupt . He's done nothing as an elected politician.
Boris was similarly exposed when he actually got power. Both populists that are only interested in themselves.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Don't see anyone disagreeing with this. As you say did what he was elected to do. Pity others don't do this.:shocked:

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Not sure how you can keep a straight face while typing that. :erm:

[ and no, he wasnt on the wrong side of brexit for me, but that doesnt stop him being a complete nob head ].

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Surely he's just a left-wing equivalent of Nigel Farage? A Brexit populist with the same great communications who appeals to the disillusioned in society who feel they are getting a rough deal from mainstream politicians.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?