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Damien 05-07-2018 20:11
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Vote Leave cabinet members are in a meeting at the moment let's see what happens. Dodgy moment for the government!

I heard on The Spectator Podcast a theory that the World Cup is well timed for May since the Saturday papers will be all about the game and resignations would be pushed off the headlines....

Sephiroth 05-07-2018 20:34
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953062)
The referendum result was a slim majority for leave, whatever that meant, not an overwhelming majority (ie 2/3) for a hard Brexit.
I contend she's honouring the referendum result.
Any hard Brexit will fail as industry will suffer in the long term and people didn't vote to be worse off.
That's not a very democratic thing to say. Indeed, that is the EU way - get the PM to rerun a referendum until the EU gets the result it wants. And why was Cameron so pro-Eu? He didn't want to lose his seat at the top table. Simples.

The difference between you and me is that I have no objection to a new referendum given the state of play, the additional information we now have, and the slim majority for Leave.

Whereas you actually want a new referendum because of the slim majority and your hope that it'll produce a Remain result.

Had it been the other way round, would you agree to a second referendum?

To be clear, I'm not asking for a second referendum. I'm asking May to deliver her commitment to 'Brexit means Brexit' as it would be understood in the ordinary sense.

1andrew1 05-07-2018 20:43
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35953065)
That's not a very democratic thing to say. Indeed, that is the EU way - get the PM to rerun a referendum until the EU gets the result it wants. And why was Cameron so pro-Eu? He didn't want to lose his seat at the top table. Simples.

The difference between you and me is that I have no objection to a new referendum given the state of play, the additional information we now have, and the slim majority for Leave.

Whereas you actually want a new referendum because of the slim majority and your hope that it'll produce a Remain result.

Had it been the other way round, would you agree to a second referendum?

To be clear, I'm not asking for a second referendum. I'm asking May to deliver her commitment to 'Brexit means Brexit' as it would be understood in the ordinary sense.
I've not said anything about a second referendum. :confused: I've explained how she's honouring the referendum result.

ianch99 05-07-2018 20:47
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
What is sad is that, during the 2016 campaign (also known as "Project Fear"), it was pointed out that we would be in trouble if we leave with no deal which now looks more and more likely:

EU referendum: CBI warns of UK exit 'serious shock'

Brexit 'huge blow' warns ex-World Trade Organisation boss

I guess people cannot complain that they were not told?

The biggest con in this whole debacle is that the Leave campaign did not have a plan, a real world, financially costed and detailed plan. I, for one, would have no complaints if everyone was given a detailed viable strategy on how we could transition from an EU member state to one operating as a "third country" without a serious cost to the country and its citizens.

FFS even Corbyn put together a costed manifesto at the last election and he's an idiot! What did Leave give us? Look here and you can see the master plan in all its glory:

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

1andrew1 05-07-2018 20:57
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35953068)
What is sad is that, during the 2016 campaign (also known as "Project Fear"), it was pointed out that we would be in trouble if we leave with no deal which now looks more and more likely:

EU referendum: CBI warns of UK exit 'serious shock'

Brexit 'huge blow' warns ex-World Trade Organisation boss

I guess people cannot complain that they were not told?

The biggest con in this whole debacle is that the Leave campaign did not have a plan, a real world, financially costed and detailed plan. I, for one, would have no complaints if everyone was given a detailed viable strategy on how we could transition from an EU member state to one operating as a "third country" without a serious cost to the country and its citizens.

FFS even Corbyn put together a costed manifesto at the last election and he's an idiot! What did Leave give us? Look here and you can see the master plan in all its glory:

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html
Totally agree with you, Ian. That would have gone some way to healing the divisions in the country. And we could assess its effectiveness over time. Instead, we've been left with the King's new clothes.

Sephiroth 05-07-2018 21:07
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953066)
I've not said anything about a second referendum. :confused: I've explained how she's honouring the referendum result.
You didn't need to. You know full well that the Referendum result for Leave needs to be delivered as per our constitutional customs. But you don't want that so the chaos of this incompetent set of politicians and May in particular has led to your perverse interpretation.

---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35953068)
What is sad is that, during the 2016 campaign (also known as "Project Fear"), it was pointed out that we would be in trouble if we leave with no deal which now looks more and more likely:

EU referendum: CBI warns of UK exit 'serious shock'

Brexit 'huge blow' warns ex-World Trade Organisation boss

I guess people cannot complain that they were not told?

The biggest con in this whole debacle is that the Leave campaign did not have a plan, a real world, financially costed and detailed plan. I, for one, would have no complaints if everyone was given a detailed viable strategy on how we could transition from an EU member state to one operating as a "third country" without a serious cost to the country and its citizens.

FFS even Corbyn put together a costed manifesto at the last election and he's an idiot! What did Leave give us? Look here and you can see the master plan in all its glory:

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html
All the above is smoke and mirrors to the main argument, even if true.

The people voted Leave in the traditional democratic way. It behoves the losers to support our step into the next phase of our nation.

1andrew1 05-07-2018 21:08
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35953070)
You didn't need to. You know full well that the Referendum result for Leave needs to be delivered as per our constitutional customs. But you don't want that so the chaos of this incompetent set of politicians and May in particular has led to your perverse interpretation.
Please don't put words into my mouth and then criticise those very words.

Theresa May is indeed delivering Brexit. It won't be in the form that everyone approves of but that is an impossible task.

Sephiroth 05-07-2018 21:19
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35953068)
<SNIP>

The biggest con in this whole debacle is that the Leave campaign did not have a plan, a real world, financially costed and detailed plan. I, for one, would have no complaints if everyone was given a detailed viable strategy on how we could transition from an EU member state to one operating as a "third country" without a serious cost to the country and its citizens.
[SEPH]: The Leave campaign was pathetic and yet the Referendum result was LEAVE. The real con was May's "Brexit means Brexit" whereby the guvmin did not plan properly for the potential outcomes and thus triggering Article 50 too early.

<SNIP

1andrew1 05-07-2018 21:39
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Interesting split in Germany on security and Brexit.
Quote:
Germany’s interior minister has warned Brussels it risks putting lives at risk with a dogmatic approach to Brexit that would hamper reaching an “unlimited” security deal with Britain.
The letter from Horst Seehofer, dated June 27 and seen by the Financial Times, is one of the bluntest internal criticisms of the EU’s negotiating strategy on Brexit since the UK voted to leave the bloc in 2016.
Writing to the European Commission, Mr Seehofer diverged from Berlin’s official policy to argue that “ensuring the security of citizens in Europe should take precedence over all other aspects of exit negotiations”...
Mr Seehofer’s letter was not co-ordinated with the chancellery or any other German ministry, according to people briefed on its origins. A spokeswoman for the German government declined to comment on “correspondence between the interior ministry and the EU”.
https://www.ft.com/content/1ff1fd74-...7-1e1a0846c475

Mick 05-07-2018 23:19
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953062)
The referendum result was a slim majority for leave, whatever that meant, not an overwhelming majority (ie 2/3) for a hard Brexit.
I contend she's honouring the referendum result.
Any hard Brexit will fail as industry will suffer in the long term and people didn't vote to be worse off.
It will not suffer - this is just you and your "Worse off" rubbish.

NO such thing as Hard Brexit either. Sick of telling you this.

The result was not a slim majority either, over one million people voted to leave than Remain - the result was binary, the answer was to leave, not leave but let's stay in parts of the EU.

You do know what "Leaving" something means don't you ?

If 17.4 Million people do not get the Brexit they voted for, do you honestly think we are just going to sit there and smile and say, ok then just ignore then what I voted for, betray me and what we voted for, there will be a revolt and riots will quite possibly happen and I will be there because what I voted for, that WON, in a Democracy is being denied and that is NOT acceptable!!!

1andrew1 05-07-2018 23:44
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35953080)
It will not suffer - this is just you and your "Worse off" rubbish.

NO such thing as Hard Brexit either. Sick of telling you this.

The result was not a slim majority either, over one million people voted to leave than Remain - the result was binary, the answer was to leave, not leave but let's stay in parts of the EU.

You do know what "Leaving" something means don't you ?

If 17.4 Million people do not get the Brexit they voted for, do you honestly think we are just going to sit there and smile and say, ok then just ignore the what I voted for, betray me and what we voted for, there will be a revolt and riots will quite possibly happen and I will be there because what I voted for, that WON, in a Democracy is being denied and that is NOT acceptable!!!
1. It's not just me who says this. Pretty much every economist says this as does the Government's own analysis. Time to face the facts and listen to people like Jaguar LandRover who actually make things in this country and less to daydreamers like Rees-Mogg.

2. Hard Brexit is an accepted term used in publications and other media throughout the world. I've given you links to prove this but you may not have had the opportunity to read them so I get your exasperation. Here they are:
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-14/what-is-hard-brexit/
https://fullfact.org/europe/what-is-hard-brexit/
http://time.com/4635762/theresa-may-...rexit-britain/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...et-immigration

3. 52-48 is slim compared to a two-thirds majority. In Norway there was a similarly slim majority to join the EU. So the country decided not to as it was not a compelling majority but instead opted to join the EEA.

4. I know what leave means Mick. Some may not like it but the can will be kicked gradually down the road, and there won't be one sudden flare-up point.
I do respect those who want a clean break. I find this more honest than saying we want to leave and then complaining that the pesky EU won't let us in Galileo and Europol. That's having your cake and eating it.

Mick 05-07-2018 23:53
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953081)
1. It's not just me who says this. Pretty much every economist says this as does the Government's own analysis. Time to face the facts and listen to people like Jaguar LandRover who actually make things in this country and less to daydreamers like Rees-Mogg.

2. Hard Brexit is an accepted term used in publications and other media throughout the world. I've given you links to prove this but you may not have had the opportunity to read them so I get your exasperation. Here they are:
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-14/what-is-hard-brexit/
https://fullfact.org/europe/what-is-hard-brexit/
http://time.com/4635762/theresa-may-...rexit-britain/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...et-immigration

3. 52-48 is slim compared to a two-thirds majority. In Norway there was a similarly slim majority to join the EU. So the country decided not to as it was not a compelling majority but instead opted to join the EEA.

4. I know what leave means Mick. Some may not like it but the can will be kicked gradually down the road, and there won't be one sudden flare-up point.
Sorry I won't budge, the EU Referendum result was not a Slim majority, over a million people is not a slim majority and it will never will be.

We must leave the EU in it's entirety, this is what Democracy decided and it must be enacted, no matter what. Many people made their mind up way before any campaigns began, I know I did.

Damien 06-07-2018 08:36
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Happy Government decides what to ask for day (and it only took two years)! Will May survive until the weekend?

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 ----------

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/stat...29187395481600

Ministers who resign will not be allowed to use Government cars to return to London. Instead the number for a local taxi firm will be used. Lol.

Claims that Cameron met Boris last night to persuade him to accept May's Brexit Plan: https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/s...36404840607745

Quote:
Exc: Boris Johnson met David Cameron last night

It’s claimed that the former PM persuaded BJ that the Theresa May compromise plan is the only one that Parliament will accept. “So Boris is to behave” says source.

1andrew1 06-07-2018 08:52
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35953091)
Happy Government decides what to ask for day (and it only took two years)! Will May survive until the weekend?

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 ----------

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/stat...29187395481600

Ministers who resign will not be allowed to use Government cars to return to London. Instead the number for a local taxi firm will be used. Lol.

Claims that Cameron met Boris last night to persuade him to accept May's Brexit Plan: https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/s...36404840607745
Great to see that Theresa May has grown a pair and Is standing up to the Eurosceptics. :D

Damien 06-07-2018 09:55
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Nick Clegg thinks Brexiters would be right to veto this plan: https://twitter.com/nick_clegg/statu...52633118625793

Quote:
I hate to say this, but Brexiters would be right to reject PM’s plan. Dual EU/UK tariffs would create vast red tape, smugglers would boom,Parliament would be humiliated. MPs would rubber stamp goods/agri rules from Brussels - right to refuse would never be used as costs too high.
As has been pointed out by others Clegg is one of the few British politicians who has a in-depth understanding of EU and it's institutions.


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