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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

OLD BOY 24-05-2021 07:57
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
We absolutely do have a good reputation for music in this country. So much so that I think many artists over here think it is a bit naff to appear on Eurovision.

We could do much better than this if we really wanted to win.

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 09:38
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36080529)
We absolutely do have a good reputation for music in this country. So much so that I think many artists over here think it is a bit naff to appear on Eurovision.

We could do much better than this if we really wanted to win.
But do we really want to win? You're right, a better act and a better song would be more in keeping with our status as a co-founder of Eurovision. But that's different from the Schadenfreude of expecting to come last (with nul points) and having a good laugh and debate about it. It's the least we could do to honour Terry Wogan's memory.

Pierre 24-05-2021 10:09
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I don't think I've watched since Bucks Fizz won.

I know it exists but it is not on my life radar and certainly nowhere near my list of things to care about.

tweetiepooh 24-05-2021 10:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I only caught the last part of jury and public vote. I haven't heard any entries but judging by how the performers that did best in the public vote were dressed should indicate what the competition wants/needs to win and that seems to be folk not being overly serious and having some fun. Especially this year, something to feel good, have a laugh and enjoyment.

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 11:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36080539)
I don't think I've watched since Bucks Fizz won.

I know it exists but it is not on my life radar and certainly nowhere near my list of things to care about.
I only watched it for the Schadenfreude. Nevertheless, this is a serious matter for which consequences are necessary!

spiderplant 24-05-2021 11:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080534)
But do we really want to win?
I'm pretty sure we don't. The winner has to host the following year's contest at huge expense. This became a major problem for Ireland in the 1990s because they kept winning.

papa smurf 24-05-2021 11:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080553)
I only watched it for the Schadenfreude. Nevertheless, this is a serious matter for which consequences are necessary!
I think musically we have nothing in common, I watched and could not believe how bad most of it was, most of europe seems to have finally made it into the 1980s,the winners looked like a mixed up suzi quatro tribute band .
summing up it was 99% awful but i was very impressed by Serbia's entry :naughty:

top marks to Graham Norton :tu:

1andrew1 24-05-2021 11:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36080557)
I think musically we have nothing in common, I watched and could not believe how bad most of it was, most of europe seems to have finally made it into the 1980s,the winners looked like a mixed up suzi quatro tribute band .
summing up it was 99% awful but i was very impressed by Serbia's entry :naughty:

top marks to Graham Norton :tu:
It's worth watching for Graham Norton's wit alone! :D

I do wish they would cut countries off that waffle when giving us their scores - the show's long enough as it is without this time-wasting!

Hugh 24-05-2021 13:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
From the recent House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee, Oral evidence: The UK's new relationship with the EU, HC 122, on Monday 17 May 2021

https://committees.parliament.uk/ora...nce/2184/html/ - questions 68-72
Quote:
Q68 Richard Drax: I do not disagree, necessarily, with gunboat diplomacy, as we showed just the other day. However, that is not going to help relations between us and the EU in the longer term, is it? Have they realised we have gone yet, or are you still having to explain that fact to them? Are you noticing good will—better will—towards us for the future? That is going to be key. How are you getting on with bilateral agreements with other EU members?

Lord Frost: They are still getting used to it. In fact, I think the EU ambassador said something like that two or three weeks ago—that they are still coming to terms with the UK’s departure—so there is a process to be gone through here. People are getting used to the different processes and the different arrangements that apply. We do not choose gunboat diplomacy, but obviously we were reacting to a demonstration that could have caused severe practical problems for Jersey. It did not cause any problems, and I like to think that our naval presence was part of that. It is not the first resort, obviously, but we have to be able to stand up for our fishermen, and for the Channel Islands in that particular case. We have to wait and see this develop. We have to get back to normal and, to a large extent, that is happening in terms of atmospherics, but I think there is a little way to go yet.

Q69 Richard Drax: So you are confident that in the months and years ahead, business can resume as normally as possible, unhindered by EU intransigence. You think that will happen.

Lord Frost: I do not know about “will happen”: I think it definitely can happen. As I said, there is a lot of pragmatism. Everybody wants trade to continue in as free-flowing a way as it possibly can in the new arrangements. There is definitely a large current of opinion in the EU and member states that wants that to happen. I think there are people who see Brexit as a bit of a zero-sum game and want us to face difficulties, but I like to think that those will not be the dominant opinions and things will settle down in a fairly pragmatic way as we move forward. We will see.

Q70 Richard Drax: Any movement on the bilateral agreements with individual EU states that I asked you about? How are you getting on with them?

Lord Frost: In any particular field?

Q71 Richard Drax: In any particular field. Obviously you are exploring bilateral agreements with separate EU countries. Are you having any success in those?

Lord Frost: There are some areas in EU competence where we are looking at bilateral agreements. For example, one area we would like to do bilateral agreements in is returns agreements on asylum seekers. That discussion is just beginning. The problem we face in that and some other areas is that although some member states probably do want to do bilateral agreements, that is not necessarily how the Commission sees it and, even if it is still a member state competence, the Commission has ways of influencing that. So we are just picking it up and I would say there is some way to go in that.

Q72 Richard Drax: Oh dear. Actually, part of my question was whether individual EU states were able to do bilateral agreements. I think you are hinting that perhaps they cannot with Big Brother sitting on their shoulder. That is a shame, but hopefully in the months and years ahead that will disappear—I am sure it will under your leadership, Lord Frost.

Lord Frost: I hope that they will see that there is an interest in constructive and collaborative relationships with us. I would expect that to happen.

Richard Drax: Thank you very much.
https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/po...g/index_en.htm
Quote:
What is trade policy?

The European Union manages its trade and investment relations with non-EU countries through its trade and investment policy.

Trade outside the EU is an exclusive responsibility of the EU, rather than the national governments of member countries. This means the EU institutions make laws on trade matters, negotiate and conclude international trade agreements.

The EU's responsibilities cover:

- trade in goods and services
- the commercial aspects of intellectual property, such as patents
- public procurement
- foreign direct investment

Article 207 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union sets out the rules on EU trade policy.
Quite worrying that a member of the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee and the Minister whose responsibilities include oversight of the effective conduct of EU related business with the EU and its Member States, don’t seem to know that individual EU countries can’t negotiate bilateral trade deals… :shocked:

However, the EU are on to them….

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...667491841.html
Quote:
2/ President @EmmanuelMacron asked for EU-UK relations to be put on the agenda because of French complaints over fishing licences and the Jersey flare up; leaders agreed, partly as it was the first time the European Council will have addressed relations since the TCA was ratified
3/ However, there is growing concern that the UK is attempting to bilateralise relations with individual member states, so EU leaders will put out a strong message of maintaining unity and protecting the integrity of the single market
4/ The TCA does permit bilateral arrangements in a number of limited areas, eg aviation, where member states can "top up" what the TCA provides for in avaition. However one diplomat says there is concern at the "onslaught" of UK attempts to coax member states into bilateral deals
5/ Member states are concerned that this will start to undermine the single market, if bilateral arrangements start to get out of hand. Diplomats say the UK is pushing for bilateral deals in youth mobility, professional qualifications, social security
6/ While some of this is permitted under the TCA, EU leaders will ask that national capitals inform the European Commission before engaging in bilateralism, and the Commission will inform all other member states
7/ The Commission will have to assess whether or not what a member state intends to do with the UK is compatible with the TCA and single market obligations.

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 14:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36080568)
From the recent House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee, Oral evidence: The UK's new relationship with the EU, HC 122, on Monday 17 May 2021

https://committees.parliament.uk/ora...nce/2184/html/ - questions 68-72

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/po...g/index_en.htm

Quite worrying that a member of the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee and the Minister whose responsibilities include oversight of the effective conduct of EU related business with the EU and its Member States, don’t seem to know that individual EU countries can’t negotiate bilateral trade deals… :shocked:

However, the EU are on to them….

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...667491841.html
Quite worrying that you are attributing "trade deals" to Drax. He neither said nor implied anything of the sort. Indeed, Frost was clear about the scope of his knowledge. In the case quoted below, I read it that he want some areas that are exclusively reserved to the EU to be delegated to countries.

Quote:
Q71 Richard Drax: In any particular field. Obviously you are exploring bilateral agreements with separate EU countries. Are you having any success in those?

Lord Frost: There are some areas in EU competence where we are looking at bilateral agreements. For example, one area we would like to do bilateral agreements in is returns agreements on asylum seekers. That discussion is just beginning. The problem we face in that and some other areas is that although some member states probably do want to do bilateral agreements, that is not necessarily how the Commission sees it and, even if it is still a member state competence, the Commission has ways of influencing that. So we are just picking it up and I would say there is some way to go in that.

pip08456 24-05-2021 14:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080571)
Quite worrying that you are attributing "trade deals" to Drax. He neither said nor implied anything of the sort. Indeed, Frost was clear about the scope of his knowledge. In the case quoted below, I read it that he want some areas that are exclusively reserved to the EU to be delegated to countries.
But Hugh's agenda is that they would be bilateral trade deals, he's a remainer. What do you expect?

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 14:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36080575)
But Hugh's agenda is that they would be bilateral trade deals, he's a remainer. What do you expect?
He's very annoying and that's what I expect.

Hugh 24-05-2021 17:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080577)
He's very annoying and that's what I expect.
I shall try to live up to your expectations… ;)

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080571)
Quite worrying that you are attributing "trade deals" to Drax. He neither said nor implied anything of the sort. Indeed, Frost was clear about the scope of his knowledge. In the case quoted below, I read it that he want some areas that are exclusively reserved to the EU to be delegated to countries.
Quote:
Q69 Richard Drax: So you are confident that in the months and years ahead, business can resume as normally as possible, unhindered by EU intransigence. You think that will happen.

Lord Frost: I do not know about “will happen”: I think it definitely can happen. As I said, there is a lot of pragmatism. Everybody wants trade to continue in as free-flowing a way as it possibly can in the new arrangements. There is definitely a large current of opinion in the EU and member states that wants that to happen. I think there are people who see Brexit as a bit of a zero-sum game and want us to face difficulties, but I like to think that those will not be the dominant opinions and things will settle down in a fairly pragmatic way as we move forward. We will see.

Q70 Richard Drax: Any movement on the bilateral agreements with individual EU states that I asked you about? How are you getting on with them?

Lord Frost: In any particular field?

Q71 Richard Drax: In any particular field. Obviously you are exploring bilateral agreements with separate EU countries. Are you having any success in those?

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 18:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36080602)
I shall try to live up to your expectations… ;)

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------
You've got that totally wrong. In q70/71 Drax had moved on from trade. You're doing well.

Hugh 24-05-2021 18:06
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36080575)
But Hugh's agenda is that they would be bilateral trade deals, he's a remainer. What do you expect?
I refer you to my post of 14/12/2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36020250)
We’re all leavers now...

It’s not an assumption, but since we have stated to the other side in the negotiations that it must be completed by a certain arbitrary date, it gives them leverage - no one willingly enters into a bad deal, but if the deal is less favourable than what we have now, it’s a bad deal.

I want a good deal, as that’s what’s best for our country,


---------- Post added at 18:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080605)
You've got that totally wrong. In q70/71 Drax had moved on from trade. You're doing well.
Sure, he did… :)

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 18:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36080608)
I refer you to my post of 14/12/2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
We’re all leavers now...

It’s not an assumption, but since we have stated to the other side in the negotiations that it must be completed by a certain arbitrary date, it gives them leverage - no one willingly enters into a bad deal, but if the deal is less favourable than what we have now, it’s a bad deal.

I want a good deal, as that’s what’s best for our country,


---------- Post added at 18:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:06 ----------

Sure, he did… :)
As Pip said, Hugh's a Remainer. He was playing with words in 2019 and is still doing that.

OLD BOY 24-05-2021 19:23
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36080608)
I refer you to my post of 14/12/2019

You forgot to reproduce Lord Frost's answer:

Lord Frost: There are some areas in EU competence where we are looking at bilateral agreements. For example, one area we would like to do bilateral agreements in is returns agreements on asylum seekers. That discussion is just beginning. The problem we face in that and some other areas is that although some member states probably do want to do bilateral agreements, that is not necessarily how the Commission sees it and, even if it is still a member state competence, the Commission has ways of influencing that. So we are just picking it up and I would say there is some way to go in that.

I'm sure that was an accidental omission, Hugh. ;)

Sephiroth 24-05-2021 19:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36080620)
You forgot to reproduce Lord Frost's answer:

Lord Frost: There are some areas in EU competence where we are looking at bilateral agreements. For example, one area we would like to do bilateral agreements in is returns agreements on asylum seekers. That discussion is just beginning. The problem we face in that and some other areas is that although some member states probably do want to do bilateral agreements, that is not necessarily how the Commission sees it and, even if it is still a member state competence, the Commission has ways of influencing that. So we are just picking it up and I would say there is some way to go in that.

I'm sure that was an accidental omission, Hugh. ;)
Did you have to give him that card to play, OB?

OLD BOY 24-05-2021 19:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36080623)
Did you have to give him that card to play, OB?
The point being, of course, that asylum seekers are nothing to do with trade, Seph.

[EDIT] Just noticed your red text!

Taf 24-05-2021 19:47
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36080557)
i was very impressed by Serbia's entry :naughty
https://eurovision.tv/video/hurrican...urovision-2021

Hugh 25-05-2021 14:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Taking back control (except for that pesky Parliamentary scrutiny...)

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1621949461

The purpose of scrutiny isn't to review something agreed, it's to see if what's being agreed, or what is current policy, is fit for purpose. Otherwise, it isn't scrutiny.

Our scrutiny processes are so "robust and transparent" that the deal can't be discussed by/with our elected representatives until after the deal is signed...:erm:

Hugh 25-05-2021 14:34
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36080620)
You forgot to reproduce Lord Frost's answer:

Lord Frost: There are some areas in EU competence where we are looking at bilateral agreements. For example, one area we would like to do bilateral agreements in is returns agreements on asylum seekers. That discussion is just beginning. The problem we face in that and some other areas is that although some member states probably do want to do bilateral agreements, that is not necessarily how the Commission sees it and, even if it is still a member state competence, the Commission has ways of influencing that. So we are just picking it up and I would say there is some way to go in that.

I'm sure that was an accidental omission, Hugh. ;)
And you missed the other bit he said... ;)

Sephiroth 25-05-2021 14:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36080626)
The point being, of course, that asylum seekers are nothing to do with trade, Seph.

[EDIT] Just noticed your red text!
I did warn you!

OLD BOY 26-05-2021 07:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36080720)
And you missed the other bit he said... ;)
No, I didn't. But I think you are assuming that he was talking about bilateral trade arrangements. He didn't actually say that, but you have assumed that is what he meant.

Perhaps he did mean that, but he didn't say so - or maybe he asked the question to ensure that the message was out there that we could not have bilateral agreements with EU countries on trade.

Hom3r 26-05-2021 10:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36080497)
12 of the 26 finalists aren’t in the EU.

Of the 38 voting countries, 15 are not in the EU

Spain only got 6 points, Germany 3 points, and the Netherlands 11 points - were the EU voters "politicising" their votes as well?
It's the Eurovision Song Contest, not the European Union song contest.

It's for countries in Europe, how Israel a country in the Middle East qualifies I'll never know.

---------- Post added at 10:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36080529)
We absolutely do have a good reputation for music in this country. So much so that I think many artists over here think it is a bit naff to appear on Eurovision.

We could do much better than this if we really wanted to win.
We could have a song that spends 30 weeks in every country with a pop chart, and we still wouldn't win.

TBH I surprised we got as many as ZERO points.

BenMcr 26-05-2021 10:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36080798)
It's the Eurovision Song Contest, not the European Union song contest.

It's for countries in Europe, how Israel a country in the Middle East qualifies I'll never know.
It's really the European Broadcasting Union Song Contest, and as Israel have a media group as a member it's why they can participate.

Morocco have entered once in the past as they're also a member.

https://www.theguardian.com/notesand...,-1900,00.html

Quote:
THE RIGHT to participate in the contest is contingent on membership of the European Broadcasting Union. The statutes of the Union limit membership "primarily ... to organisations in the European Broadcasting Area. This area, as defined by the International Telecommunications Union, extends from the Atlantic to the meridian 40 deg E. It is bounded on the south by the 30th parallel." Jerusalem, the official headquarters of Israeli Television, is 35 deg E, and on the 32nd parallel. This definition also allows for participation by Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, the Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Syria and Tunisia. Israeli participation deters these countries on a point of principle, although Morocco did enter in 1980 when Israel withdrew for Passover.
Doesn't really explain why Australia can enter though, but that's likely a pure commercial reason.

Chris 26-05-2021 10:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36080798)
It's the Eurovision Song Contest, not the European Union song contest.


It's for countries in Europe, how Israel a country in the Middle East qualifies I'll never know.
Because it’s not for countries in Europe, it’s for members of the European Broadcasting Union. The EBU is not a political entity, but an association of public service broadcasters that has always had members from outside the continent of Europe. Every country in North Africa has at least one broadcaster who is a member of the EBU, as does Jordan and Lebanon. None of them take part in the Eurovision Song Contest because Israel does. Israel and Tunisia are founder members of the EBU.

spiderplant 26-05-2021 13:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36080802)
Doesn't really explain why Australia can enter though, but that's likely a pure commercial reason.
They are an associate member of the EBU.

BenMcr 26-05-2021 13:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant (Post 36080850)
They are an associate member of the EBU.
Yes, that's true - but associate membership doesn't qualify those countries for Eurovision entry normally

https://www.ebu.ch/about/members?type=associate
Quote:
It is important to note that associate membership does not grant access to the Eurovision system.

Chris 26-05-2021 13:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36080854)
Yes, that's true - but associate membership doesn't qualify those countries for Eurovision entry normally

https://www.ebu.ch/about/members?type=associate
Australia was the first experiment in extending the format. They brought Australia in because the country is absolutely nuts for the song contest so it was an easy first step. They are now developing a version of the contest to take place between the states of the USA. There are half a dozen associate member organisations in the USA, among them CBS, NBC and ABC.

Sephiroth 27-05-2021 21:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
The EU is up to its dominating tricks again, this time with Switzerland:

Quote:
In its dealings with Switzerland, the EU is proving us right for leaving
Brussels is threatening free trade by demanding concessions no country would deem acceptable


.... But this happy arrangement is about to be phased out - thanks to the EU trying to muscle its way into Swiss affairs in a way the Swiss found unacceptable. It started with the EU, eight years ago, wanting to roll those 120 bilateral trade agreements into one. It was a reasonable ambition you might think - a tidying-up exercise, a rationalisation which would make the rules easier for everyone to understand.

But, needless to say, that wasn’t just what the EU had in mind. It wanted to seize the opportunity to extend its free movement rules to Switzerland and more effectively to impose its regulations on the country. In future, Switzerland was to be forced into ‘dynamic alignment’ with EU regulations. In other words, the EU would lay down the rules that it expected Switzerland to follow, on environmental law, labour law and everything else.

Moreover, it expected Switzerland to bend to its social security rules, which, so the Swiss feared, would have meant EU citizens being able to settle in Switzerland and gain full access to its welfare system from day one.
The paywall link is: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...right-leaving/

Hugh 27-05-2021 22:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Non-paywall

Quote:
Swiss abandon years of EU talks and reject treaty
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57251681

Sephiroth 27-05-2021 22:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
The BBC item covers the matter but with little analysis. Here is a further quote from the Telegraph article:

Quote:
There is a very clear conclusion to draw from the episode: trade arrangements which the EU found perfectly acceptable 20, 30, 40 years ago it no longer finds acceptable. The EU no longer simply wants free trade: it wants to muscle its way into many more aspects of its neighbours’ economic and social lives. Either you are a member of the EU, it is asserted, or we will try all we can to force you to become a de facto member.

In taking this attitude, the EU is threatening free trade altogether. It is much easier to do a free trade deal if you are not trying to poke your nose into every aspect of the other country’s affairs. Remainers told us that we would never have the might to do trade deals on our own – we needed to be part of the EU.

Yet the Swiss episode - eight years of negotiations for nothing - tells us something quite different. Over the coming years a nimbler, less-demanding Britain has the opportunity to open up trade with the rest of the world much more successfully than has the EU. Indeed, with its growing protectionism and arrogance, the EU risks going backwards.

TheDaddy 28-05-2021 02:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081083)
The BBC item covers the matter but with little analysis. Here is a further quote from the Telegraph article:
The Swiss got the best deal by far, I'd have liked us to have got similar but the reason they got it iirc was because their referendum on joining failed by 0.2% iirc and it was expected that they'd join, that was years ago now so they couldn't expect to just carry on, could they?

Hugh 28-05-2021 09:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081083)
The BBC item covers the matter but with little analysis. Here is a further quote from the Telegraph article:
That’s more Torygraph anti-EU commentary, rather than "analysis", imho - ymmv… ;)

papa smurf 28-05-2021 09:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Unbiased version

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-von-der-leyen




https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...it-news-update

Hugh 28-05-2021 11:08
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
<snigger>

The Express is just the Telegraph with smaller words and more pineapple…:D

Carth 28-05-2021 11:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Same as most other stuff in the world today, same data, different interpretation & spin ;)

Sephiroth 28-05-2021 12:08
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36081126)
<snigger>

The Express is just the Telegraph with smaller words and more pineapple…:D
<snigger>

The BBC is just the Grauniad with better spelling.

Taf 28-05-2021 13:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Despite the tariff-free deal agreed with the EU, a study by the University of Sussex found up to £3.5bn of British exports had taxes applied.

That accounts for about 10% of British goods exports to the EU.

Some firms paid due to the complexity of claiming zero tariffs, or said they planned to reclaim the fees later.

For exporters, maintaining zero tariffs under the post-Brexit deal is not automatic: it needs to be claimed on customs declarations that from January have had to accompany every export to the European Union.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57282379

Hugh 28-05-2021 14:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081127)
Same as most other stuff in the world today, same data, different interpretation & spin ;)
I dare you to try and put your "own interpretation" on gravity… ;)

1andrew1 28-05-2021 15:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
No words.
Quote:
Girl, 10, refused EU settled status in UK despite all family members being accepted

Exclusive: Home Office rejects Italian girl’s EU settlement application after granting status to parents and brother
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1854470.html

Chris 28-05-2021 15:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Final two paragraphs:

Quote:
A Home Office spokesperson said: “We are urgently looking into this case and are contacting the family to advise on next steps.

“We are determined to ensure all eligible children secure the status they deserve in UK law...”
On top of which a third party is also of the belief that whoever processed the application failed to follow the Home Office’s own rules and is confident the decision will be overturned when the specialist EU settlement team gets hold of it.

In other words, this is just a routine piece of mid-ranking civil servant buffoonery. Stressful, needless, but not indicative of government policy towards EU nationals (just in case that’s what you were thinking).

Carth 28-05-2021 15:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36081141)
I dare you to try and put your "own interpretation" on gravity… ;)
It's magnetism innit ;)

At Earths core is this big ball of iron, spinning at a (relatively) fast speed. All the stuff around it is static, and this creates a magnetic field which stretches up into the atmosphere.

Some naturally occurring elements (gasses mainly) have evolved to the stage where they incorporate a special (hidden) molecule that allows them to oppose the magnetic force that would, under normal circumstances, make them come crashing down. Scientists, Physicists and Molecular Engineers have been trying to isolate this molecule for years - for obvious reason.

This magnetic force is the reason people with metal false hips & knees used to walk funny, and why people who wear glasses are always having to push them back up on their nose :D

I may write a thesis on it someday ;)

papa smurf 28-05-2021 15:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081156)
It's magnetism innit ;)

At Earths core is this big ball of iron, spinning at a (relatively) fast speed. All the stuff around it is static, and this creates a magnetic field which stretches up into the atmosphere.

Some naturally occurring elements (gasses mainly) have evolved to the stage where they incorporate a special (hidden) molecule that allows them to oppose the magnetic force that would, under normal circumstances, make them come crashing down. Scientists, Physicists and Molecular Engineers have been trying to isolate this molecule for years - for obvious reason.

This magnetic force is the reason people with metal false hips & knees used to walk funny, and why people who wear glasses are always having to push them back up on their nose :D

I may write a thesis on it someday ;)
:clap: And not an apple in sight, sheer genius:tu:

joglynne 28-05-2021 16:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081156)
It's magnetism innit ;)

At Earths core is this big ball of iron, spinning at a (relatively) fast speed. All the stuff around it is static, and this creates a magnetic field which stretches up into the atmosphere.

Some naturally occurring elements (gasses mainly) have evolved to the stage where they incorporate a special (hidden) molecule that allows them to oppose the magnetic force that would, under normal circumstances, make them come crashing down. Scientists, Physicists and Molecular Engineers have been trying to isolate this molecule for years - for obvious reason.

This magnetic force is the reason people with metal false hips & knees used to walk funny, and why people who wear glasses are always having to push them back up on their nose :D

I may write a thesis on it someday ;)
Your theory makes so much sense!!!!!! I have a fair bit of metal in my legs and I remember, as a child, having problems lifting my feet and
walking in straight lines . My body was obviously being tethered more firmly to the earth, I do still have problems but I suspect that is more due to my addiction to Gin and high heels. :D :D :D


Sorry for going of topic but I couldn't resist. <<Jo moves off blushing with shame>>

Taf 28-05-2021 16:55
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081154)
In other words, this is just a routine piece of mid-ranking civil servant buffoonery. Stressful, needless, but not indicative of government policy towards EU nationals (just in case that’s what you were thinking).
The 2 main questions my wife had to answer (and prove if necessary) were "Have you been in the UK permanently for 5 years" and "Have you been permanently in the UK since 31st December 2020". Both set your status for settlement. This young lady being out of the country to finish school was probably spotted. Immigration monitor incoming flights, shipping and the Eurostar.

Hugh 28-05-2021 17:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081156)
It's magnetism innit ;)

At Earths core is this big ball of iron, spinning at a (relatively) fast speed. All the stuff around it is static, and this creates a magnetic field which stretches up into the atmosphere.

Some naturally occurring elements (gasses mainly) have evolved to the stage where they incorporate a special (hidden) molecule that allows them to oppose the magnetic force that would, under normal circumstances, make them come crashing down. Scientists, Physicists and Molecular Engineers have been trying to isolate this molecule for years - for obvious reason.

This magnetic force is the reason people with metal false hips & knees used to walk funny, and why people who wear glasses are always having to push them back up on their nose :D

I may write a thesis on it someday ;)
That's quite a theory... :D

mrmistoffelees 28-05-2021 17:39
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081156)
It's magnetism innit ;)

At Earths core is this big ball of iron, spinning at a (relatively) fast speed. All the stuff around it is static, and this creates a magnetic field which stretches up into the atmosphere.

Some naturally occurring elements (gasses mainly) have evolved to the stage where they incorporate a special (hidden) molecule that allows them to oppose the magnetic force that would, under normal circumstances, make them come crashing down. Scientists, Physicists and Molecular Engineers have been trying to isolate this molecule for years - for obvious reason.

This magnetic force is the reason people with metal false hips & knees used to walk funny, and why people who wear glasses are always having to push them back up on their nose :D

I may write a thesis on it someday ;)
Now, this kids is the result of when you miss out the ‘micro’ from microdosing

Hugh 28-05-2021 18:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36081177)
Now, this kids is the result of when you miss out the ‘micro’ from microdosing
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/7d...b2b4c51fcd.gif

OLD BOY 28-05-2021 19:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081156)
It's magnetism innit ;)

At Earths core is this big ball of iron, spinning at a (relatively) fast speed. All the stuff around it is static, and this creates a magnetic field which stretches up into the atmosphere.

Some naturally occurring elements (gasses mainly) have evolved to the stage where they incorporate a special (hidden) molecule that allows them to oppose the magnetic force that would, under normal circumstances, make them come crashing down. Scientists, Physicists and Molecular Engineers have been trying to isolate this molecule for years - for obvious reason.

This magnetic force is the reason people with metal false hips & knees used to walk funny, and why people who wear glasses are always having to push them back up on their nose :D

I may write a thesis on it someday ;)
You forgot that bit about the Earth’s mass. :idea:

Hugh 28-05-2021 21:38
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Didn’t realise the Earth was Catholic?

Pierre 28-05-2021 22:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Well you need to differentiate whether you’re talking about the impact of the force of Earths gravity on the beings that inhabit the planet, and the effect of the Earth on the fabric of space/time and the gravitational impacts that result from that.

Sephiroth 28-05-2021 23:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36081203)
Well you need to differentiate whether you’re talking about the impact of the force of Earths gravity on the beings that inhabit the planet, and the effect of the Earth on the fabric of space/time and the gravitational impacts that result from that.
That would involve triaxellation of the space/time continuum.

Carth 28-05-2021 23:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I'm not well versed on the fabric of space/time and the gravitational impacts from it, but I can tell you the moon has a similar magnetic set up to earth.

In the case of the moon though, the magnetic field repels instead of attracts . . . . which is why there's bugger all up there. :D

Maggy 29-05-2021 09:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Sigh!Topic?

Carth 29-05-2021 09:50
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
oooops, the gravity of the situation requires we come back to earth with a bump ;)

Nissan 'in talks to build huge UK battery factory'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57247758

Seems like nothing definite, but I guess there's some talking being done.

Quote:
In a statement, Nissan said: "Having established EV [electric vehicle] and battery production in the UK in 2013 for the Nissan Leaf, our Sunderland plant has played a pioneering role in developing the electric vehicle market.

"As previously announced, we will continue to electrify our line-up as part of our global journey towards carbon neutrality. However, we have no further plans to announce at this time."
Wouldn't having a plant producing these batteries mean possible problems importing the 'materials' in the amount required to do so?

Chris 29-05-2021 10:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081231)
Wouldn't having a plant producing these batteries mean possible problems importing the 'materials' in the amount required to do so?
What particular problems are you thinking of?

nomadking 29-05-2021 10:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081231)
oooops, the gravity of the situation requires we come back to earth with a bump ;)

Nissan 'in talks to build huge UK battery factory'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57247758

Seems like nothing definite, but I guess there's some talking being done.



Wouldn't having a plant producing these batteries mean possible problems importing the 'materials' in the amount required to do so?
How many of the materials come from the EU? Otherwise it's no different to before, and possibly easier when we set the import rules and tariffs.

Carth 29-05-2021 10:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081233)
What particular problems are you thinking of?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081234)
How many of the materials come from the EU? Otherwise it's no different to before, and possibly easier when we set the import rules and tariffs.
I've no idea, just vaguely recall reading that there are some 'rare metals' that everyone and his dog are now chasing. Whether they're found in Europe, South America, India etc I don't know. If they are that rare, I can't see other countries giving them up cheaply :shrug:

nomadking 29-05-2021 10:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081235)
I've no idea, just vaguely recall reading that there are some 'rare metals' that everyone and his dog are now chasing. Whether they're found in Europe, South America, India etc I don't know. If they are that rare, I can't see other countries giving them up cheaply :shrug:
Then that's little to do with being inside or outside the EU. Australia, South America, and China, are the major producers of Lithium.

Carth 29-05-2021 10:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
aah Australia eh

So a deal regarding Australian beef/lamb could be of benefit in other areas?

Chris 29-05-2021 10:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
As others have said - car battery raw materials don’t come from the EU, so our non-membership of that institution isn’t an issue. Any battery manufacturer anywhere in the world faces the same issues here. A lot of rare earths come from China, and an increasing number of mines elsewhere in the world are owned by Chinese companies (and are therefore under the influence of the Chinese Communist Party).

Taf 29-05-2021 10:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081236)
Then that's little to do with being inside or outside the EU. Australia, South America, and China, are the major producers of Lithium.
Most manufacturers are moving away from Cobalt in Lithium batteries due to the political fallout from the DR Congo. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries are what Elon Musk is chasing.

nomadking 29-05-2021 11:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081237)
aah Australia eh

So a deal regarding Australian beef/lamb could be of benefit in other areas?
How? We are free to set zero tariffs for Lithium, as long as it applies to all countries. The problem in the future, will be exporting the batteries to the EU. EU being awkward as always.

The EU has suspended tariffs on a series of key materials, including Lithium. I should image the UK has followed, or even did so before the EU.
Then there is the future promise of UK produced Lithium from Cornwall. The UK might end up being the world's 2nd largest producer.

Sephiroth 29-05-2021 12:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
So long as the EU doesn't get a single ounce of British Lithioum, I'll be content.

Sod 'em.

1andrew1 01-06-2021 08:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
50 new jobs in Wigan. :tu: Will be good to see HP (House of Parlaiment) sauce in particular made in the UK again!
Quote:
Kraft Heinz to invest in the UK to make tomato ketchup

Kraft Heinz says it will invest $199m (£140m) in a UK food manufacturing facility over the next four years.

The plans for the plant in north west England would see British favourites - ketchup, mayonnaise and salad cream - made in the country once again.

It would be the firm's biggest expansion of a manufacturing site outside the US in more than 20 years.

The company said it is also one of the largest investments in UK manufacturing since Brexit.

The plan, which is subject to approval in the US, will also fund equipment and technology and create up to 50 new full-time jobs, the company said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57312162

Services apparently suffering :td:
Quote:
Brexit shrank UK services exports by £110bn, academics find

Research shows that financial services exports were hardest hit over four-year period

Brexit shrank UK services exports by more than £110bn over a four-year period, new research shows, highlighting the far-reaching trade implications of Britain’s decision to break away from the EU.

Experts at Aston University in Birmingham found that UK services exports from 2016 to 2019 were cumulatively £113bn lower than they would have been had the UK not voted to quit the EU in June 2016.

The researchers calculated the figure by projecting how industries from IT and finance to business services would have grown if they had continued on their previous paths, and compared that with how they had actually progressed since the vote for Brexit. The gap was £113bn.

“What we find raises serious concerns about the damage to the UK’s services trade position and the likely spillovers to the economy and jobs related to the services sectors,” said Jun Du, professor of economics at Aston Business School.
https://www.ft.com/content/20a626ab-...0-bfd1e1ff132d

Sephiroth 01-06-2021 08:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I'll just say this to Andrew (and his Remainer ilk):

The sovereignty argument won the Referendum day over trade with the EU.

The squeeze that the EU tried to put on Switzerland puts this into tight focus. The EU's mission in relation to third countries close to their borders is to try and control the freedoms of those countries.

Sovereignty is everything, especially in a resilient country such as ours.

Btw, had we remained in the EU or participated in their Covid vaccine exploits, we still wouldn't be 50% vaccinated.

Pierre 01-06-2021 09:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081539)
50 new jobs in Wigan. :tu: Will be good to see HP (House of Parlaiment) sauce in particular made in the UK again!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57312162

Services apparently suffering :td:

https://www.ft.com/content/20a626ab-...0-bfd1e1ff132d
Isn’t 2016 to 2019 a three year period?

Carth 01-06-2021 10:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36081542)
Isn’t 2016 to 2019 a three year period?
That depends on how the expert researchers want the results to look ;)

You could count from Jan 2016 to Dec 2019, or Dec 2016 to Jan 2019 . . . hey, data is to be played with, right?

1andrew1 01-06-2021 10:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081544)
That depends on how the expert researchers want the results to look ;)

You could count from Jan 2016 to Dec 2019, or Dec 2016 to Jan 2019 . . . hey, data is to be played with, right?
Agreed. ;)

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081541)

Btw, had we remained in the EU or participated in their Covid vaccine exploits, we still wouldn't be 50% vaccinated.
The vaccination programme was led by a Remainer, Kate Bingham who has basically saved Boris's arse after the multiple farces of releasing infected patients into care homes, delayed lockdowns and farcical PPE procurement. The vaccine programme would have had happened in or out of the EU as Kate Bingham has made clear.

If there's a Brexit connection to Coronavirus it's to the Indian variant of the virus. Its rapid spread in the UK occurred as Boris was keen to woo India with a trade deal. So he didn't put India into the red list until 19th April effective from 23rd April despite knowing about it on 1st April.

I don't call this variant a Brexit bonus.

Sephiroth 01-06-2021 10:39
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081545)
Agreed. ;)

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------


The vaccination programme was led by a Remainer, Kate Bingham who has basically saved Boris's arse after the multiple farces of releasing infected patients into care homes, delayed lockdowns and farcical PPE procurement. The vaccine programme would have had happened in or out of the EU as Kate Bingham has made clear.

If there's a Brexit connection to Coronavirus it's to the Indian variant of the virus. Its rapid spread in the UK occurred as Boris was keen to woo India with a trade deal. So he didn't put India into the red list until 19th April effective from 23rd April despite knowing about it on 1st April.

I don't call this variant a Brexit bonus.
You're twisting the argument to suit your narrative.

I wasn't referring to the Indian variant in terms of what you call the "Brexit bonus".

Furthermore, the Brexit orientation of Kate Bingham (or for that matter Matt Hancock) is neither here nor there. By not being in the EU we were not controlled by Brussels who have ensured that there is uniformity across the EU over the vaccine delivery rate.

As regards the Indian variant, sure - Boris took the wrong decision as you've described. But looking at the national and regional data, the hospital pressure and death rate does not match the positive case count.

This being a Brexit thread, it seems obvious to most other than the diehard Remainers that the vaccine rollout here has been much better than in the EU.

Carth 01-06-2021 10:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Not defending Boris or the Govt. but . .

Isn't it also correct that people in red listed countries were flying to green/amber countries, and from there to the UK?

Do you think if India had been placed on the red list immediately, nobody in India would have done the same?

I guess it only takes one infected person to get through . . from anywhere ;)

1andrew1 01-06-2021 10:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081550)
Not defending Boris or the Govt. but . .

Isn't it also correct that people in red listed countries were flying to green/amber countries, and from there to the UK?

Do you think if India had been placed on the red list immediately, nobody in India would have done the same?

I guess it only takes one infected person to get through . . from anywhere ;)
I doubt other countries would have accepted passengers from India, just desperate BoJo. In Australia, anyone flying back from India could get thrown in jail.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56953052

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081548)
You're twisting the argument to suit your narrative.

I wasn't referring to the Indian variant in terms of what you call the "Brexit bonus".

Furthermore, the Brexit orientation of Kate Bingham (or for that matter Matt Hancock) is neither here nor there. By not being in the EU we were not controlled by Brussels who have ensured that there is uniformity across the EU over the vaccine delivery rate.

As regards the Indian variant, sure - Boris took the wrong decision as you've described. But looking at the national and regional data, the hospital pressure and death rate does not match the positive case count.

This being a Brexit thread, it seems obvious to most other than the diehard Remainers that the vaccine rollout here has been much better than in the EU.
No one's denying that the vaccine roll-out in the UK has been better than most of Europe. But to attribute that to Brexit is erroneous, although I accept that many people do link the two. But there is a link to do a trade deal and the favourable travel treatment from India compared to Pakistan and India.

Hugh 01-06-2021 12:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081550)
Not defending Boris or the Govt. but . .

Isn't it also correct that people in red listed countries were flying to green/amber countries, and from there to the UK?

Do you think if India had been placed on the red list immediately, nobody in India would have done the same?

I guess it only takes one infected person to get through . . from anywhere ;)
Not directly - they had to stay in the Amber countries for 10 days.

1andrew1 01-06-2021 21:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Wetherspoons boss calls for more EU migration to tackle bar staff shortage

Tim Martin says a "reasonably liberal immigration system" controlled by the UK - rather than the EU - will boost the economy

The Brexit-backing boss of JD Wetherspoon has urged Boris Johnson to introduce a visa scheme for EU workers as British pubs and restaurants struggle to recruit staff in the post-pandemic labour market squeeze.

Tim Martin, an ardent Brexiteer, said the Government should introduce a visa system to alleviate some of the pressures on companies, suggesting that countries geographically closer to the UK could be given preferential treatment.

The intervention came as pub and restaurant bosses warned they were being forced to shut sites during the crucial lunchtime trade due to a shortage of workers...

The Home Office said it wanted employers to focus on training and investing British workers rather than relying on foreign labour.

However, a spokesman said it was making it "simpler" for employers to attract talent from around the world "to complement the skills we already have".
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...taff-shortage/

Carth 01-06-2021 22:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Wasn't he the dick that 'upset' many of his employees regarding furlough or something?

Anyway, he should be looking at pay & conditions before shipping in cheap labour ;)

nomadking 01-06-2021 22:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36081615)
Wasn't he the dick that 'upset' many of his employees regarding furlough or something?

Anyway, he should be looking at pay & conditions before shipping in cheap labour ;)
What have pay and conditions got to do with it? What and where, exactly are these high paying jobs that people are otherwise doing?:rolleyes:

TheDaddy 01-06-2021 23:20
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081616)
What have pay and conditions got to do with it? What and where, exactly are these high paying jobs that people are otherwise doing?:rolleyes:
Pay and conditions are what makes a job attractive, well that and job satisfaction, if you don't get the latter you need the former

Carth 02-06-2021 01:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081616)
What have pay and conditions got to do with it? What and where, exactly are these high paying jobs that people are otherwise doing?:rolleyes:
Not many high paying jobs around for the majority of the unemployed, and if you're married with kids, part time with benefits probably works out as the better option.
Not saying that's right, but if the system is there to be played, folk will play it.
We bring people into the country (with the pretext that their 'skilled') and they end up working anywhere . . . because minimum wage here is better than they get back home ;) :D


*waits for someone to bring NHS up

nomadking 02-06-2021 08:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36081620)
Pay and conditions are what makes a job attractive, well that and job satisfaction, if you don't get the latter you need the former
And what exactly is meant to be the more lucrative alternative? Didn't realise we've reached the mythical zero-unemployment stage.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 09:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Every day brings the joy of being outside the wretched EU. They have shown themselves to the world for what they are - a bunch of hegemonist bullies and we're well out of it.

Why is it continuing, I hear someone ask? Because it's in Germany's interests as the EU's industrial power - remember, they rigged the Euro to favour their balance of payments.

France is Germany's running dog. It is noted that they objected to the Jersey fishing licensing conditions whilst at the same time tried to stiff Switzerland with a new treaty to replace the existing clutch of treaties, at the same time introducing new conditions that would make Switzerland a vassal state of the EU.

Pierre 02-06-2021 09:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081552)
No one's denying that the vaccine roll-out in the UK has been better than most of Europe. But to attribute that to Brexit is erroneous, although I accept that many people do link the two.
Come on Andrew, how do you say that with a straight face.

We would still be in the EU and bound by the vaccination procurement regime which was a cluster frack for all to see.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 10:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36081634)
Come on Andrew, how do you say that with a straight face.

We would still be in the EU and bound by the vaccination procurement regime which was a cluster frack for all to see.
I say it only because it's true. Kate Bingham herself said we could have opted in or out of the EU procurement plan regardless of EU membership. Despite being a Remainer, she chose not to join it.

I can understand why you perpetuate the myth as Brexit has not brought the desired benefits to fishing and small exporters are floundering in red tape.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 10:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081636)
I say it only because it's true. Kate Bingham herself said we could have opted in or out of the EU procurement plan regardless of EU membership. Despite being a Remainer, she chose not to join it.

I can understand why you perpetuate the myth as Brexit has not brought the desired benefits to fishing and small exporters are floundering in red tape.
Andrew, you're way off beam here as regards Covid. It's in the realms of the bleedin' obvious that had we joined the EU programme, we would now be at around the 50% mark rather than 75%.

Not that I can produce evidence, I'd be confident that the decision was taken right at the top. And even if it was Bingham's delegated decision, she obviously had a lightbulb moment.

On the fishing and red tape matters, these will sort themselves out.

Chris 02-06-2021 10:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081636)
I say it only because it's true. Kate Bingham herself said we could have opted in or out of the EU procurement plan regardless of EU membership. Despite being a Remainer, she chose not to join it.

I can understand why you perpetuate the myth as Brexit has not brought the desired benefits to fishing and small exporters are floundering in red tape.
You say it because you have never grasped how the EU functions. Consensus is everything, and vetoes and opt-outs are always controversial. The UK would not have been treaty-bound to participate in the EU scheme had we remained, however to suggest that we would not have participated is simply not credible.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 10:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081637)
Andrew, you're way off beam here as regards Covid. It's in the realms of the bleedin' obvious that had we joined the EU programme, we would now be at around the 50% mark rather than 75%.

Not that I can produce evidence, I'd be confident that the decision was taken right at the top. And even if it was Bingham's delegated decision, she obviously had a lightbulb moment.

On the fishing and red tape matters, these will sort themselves out.
Kate Bingham herself confirmed joining the EU procurement programme was not mandatory for EU members but I can understand why you might want to chalk this success up to Brexit.

The reality is somewhat harsher. All that Brexit has brought us in the way of Covid is the Indian variant as BoJo kept India off red status to try and strike a trade deal with that country.

Chris 02-06-2021 10:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081640)
Kate Bingham herself confirmed joining the EU procurement programme was not mandatory for EU members
Please see my post above.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 11:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081639)
You say it because you have never grasped how the EU functions. Consensus is everything, and vetoes and opt-outs are always controversial. The UK would not have been treaty-bound to participate in the EU scheme had we remained, however to suggest that we would not have participated is simply not credible.
Vaccines are a matter of life and death. Britain with its strong history of EU opt-outs would not have blinked twice at not opting into such a programme following the same analytical path that Kate Bingham took.
To pretend otherwise does this great country of ours a grave disservice. Our track record on taking an independent line in the EU and making difficult decisions when in the country's best interests was a proud one.

Chris 02-06-2021 11:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081644)
Vaccines are a matter of life and death. Britain with its strong history of EU opt-outs would not have blinked twice at not opting into such a programme following the same analytical path that Kate Bingham took.
To pretend otherwise does this great country of ours a grave disservice. Our track record on taking an independent line in the EU and making difficult decisions when in the country's best interests was a proud one.
As I said - you don’t understand the EU and you never have.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 11:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081640)
Kate Bingham herself confirmed joining the EU procurement programme was not mandatory for EU members but I can understand why you might want to chalk this success up to Brexit.

The reality is somewhat harsher. All that Brexit has brought us in the way of Covid is the Indian variant as BoJo kept India off red status to try and strike a trade deal with that country.
Never mind what Bingham "herself" said. Those EU members who subscribed to the programme were left in a right mess by VdL and had we joined, we would be up the same street - 50% first vaccinations or thereabouts.

You cannot put the Indian variant down to Brexit. That's plain stupid and way below your normal standard. The two way human traffic with India would have happened anyway. You're pinning your argument on Boris' stupidity in holding out to so a trade deal with India. Notwithstanding the delay, the Indian variant was already seeded here.

Plus you steadfastedly ignore that we are free from the diktats of the EU. We have our sovereignty and everything will find ists proper level.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 11:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081645)
As I said - you don’t understand the EU and you never have.
I'm not going to assess anyone's understanding of the EU but will just share the facts:

From Full Fact:

Quote:
WHAT WAS CLAIMED
The UK was able to approve the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine more quickly because of Brexit.

OUR VERDICT
This is not correct. Under European law, the UK was permitted to act independently to approve the vaccine in an emergency.
https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/


From the Institute of Government:

Quote:
The UK could have followed the same course of vaccine action if it were an EU member
That said, none of these successes can be chalked up to Brexit. As the chief executive of the MHRA swiftly pointed out, Mr Hancock was wrong to say that the UK could approve the vaccine early because it was no longer subject to EU rules. The MHRA’s decision was taken in accordance with the relevant EU legislation, which allows member states to grant temporary authorisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of infectious diseases (among others). [1] This legislation still applies to the UK until the end of the transition period. Any EU member state could have used the same provision of the legislation to approve the vaccine. They decided not to for political and technical reasons, not legal ones.

Similarly, the member states were in no way obliged to take part in the EU’s joint vaccine procurement scheme. The EU has very limited competences for public health under its founding treaties: it can take action only to “support, coordinate or supplement the actions of the Member States”. The EU member states in this case voluntarily decided to opt into the joint procurement scheme. If one or more of them had decided to follow the UK’s path and procure its own vaccines, no one would have stopped them.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...cisions-brexit

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 11:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081644)
Vaccines are a matter of life and death. Britain with its strong history of EU opt-outs would not have blinked twice at not opting into such a programme following the same analytical path that Kate Bingham took.
To pretend otherwise does this great country of ours a grave disservice. Our track record on taking an independent line in the EU and making difficult decisions when in the country's best interests was a proud one.
So, let's assume that we are in the EU but Bingham/Boris decided to opt out of the EU procurement.

The screw-up would still have occurred and VdL would still have demanded British produced vaccine. A referendum at that point would have produced an even greater Leave margin!

It's no use being in a consensus group of 28 countries, unable to decide our own destiny and being royally stiffed by France on Fishing, Agriculture and the WTD.

Carth 02-06-2021 11:48
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Didn't the EU jump on one of it's members for trying to 'go it alone' with a vaccine . . or am I imagining it?

Not that it matter this far down the line . . the only reason it's being mentioned is for a direction the finger can be pointed in :p:

Chris 02-06-2021 12:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081648)
I'm not going to assess anyone's understanding of the EU but will just share the facts:

From Full Fact:


https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/


From the Institute of Government:


https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...cisions-brexit
Every post you make simply demonstrates my point.

The answer doesn’t lie in what treaties permit. It lies in the way the council of ministers works, particularly when they’re all shut in long, closed negotiations.

The idea that the UK would have taken the political hit of abandoning the other EU member states by not joining the vaccine programme, had it been an EU member riding on the back of a recent vote to remain in the bloc, is absolutely absurd.

nomadking 02-06-2021 12:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Regardless of how the EU actually acted as far as vaccines are concerned, a question remains if the UK had still been in the EU, as to whether the EU would've taken full and complete control instead.

Was it just just coincidence in the past, when the EEC(now EU) took control of fishing waters, just before new countries were looking to join(eg UK, Ireland, Norway) that has large fishing waters.
UK had an exemption to the Social Chapter, what happened is that the EU forced it upon us anyway via a backdoor method.
The EU is just a big bully.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 12:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081651)
The idea that the UK would have taken the political hit of abandoning the other EU member states by not joining the vaccine programme, had it been an EU member riding on the back of a recent vote to remain in the bloc, is absolutely absurd.
That's something I doubt we'll agree on I'm afraid. This was not another business as usual scenario.

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081652)
UK had an exemption to the Social Chapter, what happened is that the EU forced it upon us anyway via a backdoor method.
Can you expand on this backdoor method?

Meanwhile, moving forwards, this is interesting.
Quote:
Liz Truss Excellent news that #CPTPP nations have agreed UK accession process will commence to join this dynamic free trade area of 11 countries.
We'll present our plans to Parliament in the coming weeks before starting negotiations .
https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1399986254419275776

Chris 02-06-2021 12:22
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I believe significant sections of the social chapter were subsequently incorporated into workplace health and safety directives. Someone with more time can probably find a link or two.

TheDaddy 02-06-2021 12:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081632)
And what exactly is meant to be the more lucrative alternative? Didn't realise we've reached the mythical zero-unemployment stage.
You do realise all these vacancies were filled 18 months ago don't you but instead of furloughing staff they decided to sack them rather than pay the Ni, I wouldn't go back either in those circumstances

nomadking 02-06-2021 12:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36081656)
You do realise all these vacancies were filled 18 months ago don't you but instead of furloughing staff they decided to sack them rather than pay the Ni, I wouldn't go back either in those circumstances
If they had been kept on for no good reason, then the businesses would've gone bust, and there would be no jobs available now.

Still leaves the unanswered question of, what is so good in their current situation, that it is better than going for a job?


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